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7 minutes ago, halifaxmark said:

Its a joke. Never a penalty and then de gea a few inch off his line. Games getting ruined. 

Gone from one extreme to the other. But just use common sense it's all it takes. Refs dont seem to have any of that mind. He didn't give a pen initially I suspect because of the close distance. Why then not stick to your gut decision. 

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1 hour ago, Greggs said:

On an unbiased view. If that's a penalty this coming season there will be about 5 penalties a game. 

It's ridiculous. Utd have had a few of those go in their favour in the past year and today they have been the victim of it. How it can be handball when the ball is blasted at you from a few yards away and there is no chance to get out of the way is beyond me. 

Then the "off his line" call is even more pathetic. Theres got to be some common sense and it appears to have just disappeared. Keepers simply have no chance now if they can't even move ffs. 

If those calls had gone against us I would have been livid. 

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3 minutes ago, Flea said:

It's ridiculous. Utd have had a few of those go in their favour in the past year and today they have been the victim of it. How it can be handball when the ball is blasted at you from a few yards away and there is no chance to get out of the way is beyond me. 

Then the "off his line" call is even more pathetic. Theres got to be some common sense and it appears to have just disappeared. Keepers simply have no chance now if they can't even move ffs. 

If those calls had gone against us I would have been livid. 

I've just read the Gary Neville rant about the two decisions, as I say I have seen them yet but all I'll say is "be careful what you wish for"!!! All of those people who were screaming for VAR to brought into the game are the loudest critics of it when it goes against them. Personally I remain true to my original train of thought, its killing the game stone dead. So Refs used to get the odd thing wrong, but surely thats what made the game a hell of a lot more exciting, not this clinical crap that we are served no where play can be brought back 2 mins after an incident. Get it out quick?

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1 minute ago, TommyH72 said:

I've just read the Gary Neville rant about the two decisions, as I say I have seen them yet but all I'll say is "be careful what you wish for"!!! All of those people who were screaming for VAR to brought into the game are the loudest critics of it when it goes against them. Personally I remain true to my original train of thought, its killing the game stone dead. So Refs used to get the odd thing wrong, but surely thats what made the game a hell of a lot more exciting, not this clinical crap that we are served no where play can be brought back 2 mins after an incident. Get it out quick?

There are plenty of things wrong with Var granted however they have taken a positive step getting the on field ref to look at the monitor and let it be "their call" as opposed to a faceless var making a call from miles away. Now the next development step in this has to be the use of common sense from there on the refs behalf. He made a call on the pitch live that it was no pen. All sorts of things come into mind when deciding on a spot kick. It was always a case that if you were very close a penalty would not be given now it seems that has gone out of the window. 

Just use common sense when viewing the monitor because at the top level of the game referees are 85% of the time spot on with a live call. 

And if there is any doubt when viewing the monitor you then stick with your on field call very much like they do in rugby league.  

Common sense it's that simple. 

I cant see the new rules seeing out the season and may need to be reviewed very quickly because there are going to be a huge amount of pens this season based on the ruling.

When you watch match of the day. Please do come back on here with your view point because I think you'll come back and say that situation was easily sortable "if" Common sense was applied at the time of viewing the monitor. And making the call via the monitor as they would live in game. 

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Football clubs are too powerful now - VAR is a consequence of that. Imagine a club like Chelsea, the play thing of a Russian billionaire, missing out on half a billion because they didn't qualify for the Champions League following a dodgy decision. The prospect of the club taking legal action against match officials and the competition/league is ever present in such circumstances, at least with VAR both can say that they did everything possible to make the correct decisions. The opposite is "well, yeah, maybe being able to view the incident again may have yielded a different decision, but the league didn't provide me that option" - I honestly believe that VAR is more about not being left holding the shitty nappy than trying to ensure fairness, because as Tommy says, most supporters would accept an element of bad decision making from the officials as being part and parcel of the game.

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Having just watch the United game on MOTD, recorded of course, both of the decisions being discussed are wrong on so many levels. Having refereed for 15 years, this is exactly what we, the Referees Association, fought against when the FA proposed bringing in VAR. Football is not a game where you can stop the game and bring it back for decisions being made by a so called match official who is sat in a stand. The golden rule in the Rules of the Game was always that the referees decision, on the pitch, in the heat of the moment, is final.

I will digest what I have just witnessed and make further comments once I have had time to calm down. 

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10 hours ago, Flea said:

It's ridiculous. Utd have had a few of those go in their favour in the past year and today they have been the victim of it. How it can be handball when the ball is blasted at you from a few yards away and there is no chance to get out of the way is beyond me. 

Then the "off his line" call is even more pathetic. Theres got to be some common sense and it appears to have just disappeared. Keepers simply have no chance now if they can't even move ffs. 

If those calls had gone against us I would have been livid. 

aww poor man u...been getting away with it for years

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11 hours ago, Greggs said:

There are plenty of things wrong with Var granted however they have taken a positive step getting the on field ref to look at the monitor and let it be "their call" as opposed to a faceless var making a call from miles away. Now the next development step in this has to be the use of common sense from there on the refs behalf. He made a call on the pitch live that it was no pen. All sorts of things come into mind when deciding on a spot kick. It was always a case that if you were very close a penalty would not be given now it seems that has gone out of the window. 

Just use common sense when viewing the monitor because at the top level of the game referees are 85% of the time spot on with a live call. 

And if there is any doubt when viewing the monitor you then stick with your on field call very much like they do in rugby league.  

Common sense it's that simple. 

I cant see the new rules seeing out the season and may need to be reviewed very quickly because there are going to be a huge amount of pens this season based on the ruling.

When you watch match of the day. Please do come back on here with your view point because I think you'll come back and say that situation was easily sortable "if" Common sense was applied at the time of viewing the monitor. And making the call via the monitor as they would live in game. 

Well having watched MotD, theres no denying that the ball hit the lads arm, after that it's about how you interpret it, deliberate or accidental!! And you are correct, it's not a penalty. But it's more interesting to me that the Ref played on and that it was VAR that pulled play back and put the pressure on him. And I know VAR has its supporters (Im not one) but this cant be allowed to happen, it's ruining the game. Human error has to play a part. Again, interesting to note but in the Arsenal v WBA game there was a far clearer hand ball that was checked by VAR and dismissed. One thing that VAR was supposed to give was consistency, so thats out the window. As for De Geia, again, by the letter of the law he was off his line before the ball was struck so a retake was the correct decision, but, and I'm pretty sure if you watch closely, he's off his line  before the ball is struck for the retake, so by the letter of the law it should be a further retake and a booking. Ultimately, it didnt affect the outcome of the game so it doesnt really matter. But GET VAR OUT!!!

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4 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

Well having watched MotD, theres no denying that the ball hit the lads arm, after that it's about how you interpret it, deliberate or accidental!! And you are correct, it's not a penalty. But it's more interesting to me that the Ref played on and that it was VAR that pulled play back and put the pressure on him. And I know VAR has its supporters (Im not one) but this cant be allowed to happen, it's ruining the game. Human error has to play a part. Again, interesting to note but in the Arsenal v WBA game there was a far clearer hand ball that was checked by VAR and dismissed. One thing that VAR was supposed to give was consistency, so thats out the window. As for De Geia, again, by the letter of the law he was off his line before the ball was struck so a retake was the correct decision, but, and I'm pretty sure if you watch closely, he's off his line  before the ball is struck for the retake, so by the letter of the law it should be a further retake and a booking. Ultimately, it didnt affect the outcome of the game so it doesnt really matter. But GET VAR OUT!!!

It is not the fault of VAR, it is the hand ball rule is obtuse and needs amending.

I'm sure if the ref had chance to look at a pitch-side tv screen and was allowed to make his own decision then he would never have awarded a penalty.

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23 minutes ago, rdj said:

It is not the fault of VAR, it is the hand ball rule is obtuse and needs amending.

I'm sure if the ref had chance to look at a pitch-side tv screen and was allowed to make his own decision then he would never have awarded a penalty.

But he didnt award the penalty until he was forced to by VAR. The hand ball rule is completely open to interpretation, everyone has a differing opinion on it, and thats how it has to be, its what makes the game interesting. As far as I'm concerned it wasnt a penalty and initially thats how the Ref seen it, then play on!! Its swings and roundabout, some decisions will go your way and some against you,whats wrong with that. 

Edited by TommyH72
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9 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

But he didnt award the penalty until he was forced to by VAR. The hand ball rule is completely open to interpretation, everyone has a differing opinion on it, and thats how it has to be, its what makes the game interesting. As far as I'm concerned it wasnt a penalty and initially thats how the Ref seen it, then play on!! Its swings and roundabout, some decisions will go your way and some against you,whats wrong with that. 

"It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then: 
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close. "

My view is that the first point would appear to apply as after his hand moved toward the ball, the ball was directed to the goalkeeper thus allowing his team to gain possession..

Edited by rdj
error
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40 minutes ago, rdj said:

"It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then: 
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close. "

My view is that the first point would appear to apply as after his hand moved toward the ball, the ball was directed to the goalkeeper thus allowing his team to gain possession..

Yes, those are the rules as per the official handbook (I think) but we all know that the way it works is how much the manager of a team slagged off the Ref after last seasons  humiliating defeat where the Ref had been directly responsible for his teams 4 - 0 home defeat against the bottom of the league. Get VAR out!!

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"It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then: 
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close. "

Based on the above the word "deliberately" comes into play. What should also come into consideration are other factors such as, the position of the players arm when the contact was made, was it in an "unnatural" position. As a referee you learn to pick up on the reactions of the other players as to whether something has happened, in this case there were no appeals from the opposing players, and play continued with no appeals or requests to have the incident reviewed. To all on the pitch it was a clear case of "ball to hand".

What concerns me is that play was allowed to proceed to the other end of the field before the VAR referee interfered. Now, it was always my understanding that the official in the VAR booth was there to "assist" the referee by providing confirmation of whether something had occurred or not if the referee was unclear on what happened at a specific point in time on the field. For example, was a player offside before awarding a goal. In this case it was a clear case of the VAR official becoming in effect the referee, something I think all of football should resist. 

What would have happened if play had gone down the other end of the field and Man Utd had scored. Would they have brought it back to award a penalty to Palace? Can you imaging the uproar that would have caused.

For me any use of VAR should be purely limited to providing assistance as and when the referee asks for it, not as in this case as a back door mechanism for someone sat in a booth in the stand to take control of a game. 

 

Edited by ITMAN
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11 minutes ago, ITMAN said:

"It is an offence if a player:

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then: 
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close. "

Based on the above the word "deliberately" comes into play. What should also come into consideration are other factors such as, the position of the players arm when the contact was made, was it in an "unnatural" position. As a referee you learn to pick up on the reactions of the other players as to whether something has happened, in this case there were no appeals from the opposing players, and play continued with no appeals or requests to have the incident reviewed. To all on the pitch it was a clear case of "ball to hand".

What concerns me is that play was allowed to proceed to the other end of the field before the VAR referee interfered. Now, it was always my understanding that the official in the VAR booth was there to "assist" the referee by providing confirmation of whether something had occurred or not if the referee was unclear on what happened at a specific point in time on the field. For example, was a player offside before awarding a goal. In this case it was a clear case of the VAR official becoming in effect the referee, something I think all of football should resist. 

What would have happened if play had gone down the other end of the field and Man Utd had scored. Would they have brought it back to award a penalty to West Brom? Can you imaging the uproar that would have caused.

For me any use of VAR should be purely limited to providing assistance as and when the referee asks for it, not as in this case as a back door mechanism for someone sat in a booth in the stand to take control of a game. 

 

Brilliantly put Itman!! Except he would probably have been better off giving the Penalty to Crystal Palace?????? :D But VAR is killing the game, GET IT OUT

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15 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

Brilliantly put Itman!! Except he would probably have been better off giving the Penalty to Crystal Palace?????? :D But VAR is killing the game, GET IT OUT

Thanks for spotting the deliberate error Tommy. I have tried to correct/edit it but it just creates a new post.

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