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Restricted capacity at the Shay


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On 8/8/2020 at 9:05 PM, Flea said:

I'd imagine our capacity could be hampered by two factors -

The safety of the North Stand - and possibly the need to have the Skircoat open for away fans

The incompetence and over the top bureaucracy of Calderdale Council. 

It would not surprise me if the Council came back with some ridiculous conditions and demands like - no more than 250 people in each opened stand, no food or drinks in ground, face masks have to be worn at all time, allocated times to enter/leave the stands and restrictions on toilet use.

Tim Swift will have his say and play political football. 

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6 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

If it was the only way they could attend they may well feel the urge

Unfortunately I don’t think we would sell anywhere near enough to be viable,I reckon we would need to sell at least 900 I reckon we might sell 500 at the very most and that won’t be enough.

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13 minutes ago, Forever a Shayman said:

Unfortunately I don’t think we would sell anywhere near enough to be viable,I reckon we would need to sell at least 900 I reckon we might sell 500 at the very most and that won’t be enough.

I would think that DB will be budgeting on his normal target of around 2200. If that's the case we need to see a weekly football card on here and plenty of other initiatives to keep the club going. 

This is where footballers being paid a realistic wage comes in. It's alright saying they only have a short career but if half the clubs go under they won't have any career. 

Edited by Erik Everhard
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14 minutes ago, Forever a Shayman said:

Unfortunately I don’t think we would sell anywhere near enough to be viable,I reckon we would need to sell at least 900 I reckon we might sell 500 at the very most and that won’t be enough.

If the 1,000 S/T's sold at £199 is accurate then to bring in the same revenue at £299, we would need to sell 665 season tickets.

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9 minutes ago, Erik Everhard said:

I would think that DB will be budgeting on his normal target of around 2200. If that's the case we need to see a weekly football card on here and plenty of other initiatives to keep the club going. 

This is where footballers being paid a realistic wage comes in. It's alright saying they only have a short career but if half the clubs go under they won't have any career. 

The only problem with that is it includes away supporters. Last season this averaged out at 212, or roughly £4,200 per game, across a full season that is a loss of £96,600, or another 323 season tickets to fill the hole in the budgets. So overall about 1,000 season tickets would allow us to at least have some chance of keeping income at the same level.

Edited by ITMAN
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1 minute ago, Forever a Shayman said:

But our average attendance was over 2200 so how would 665 tickets be enough on just season ticket fans attending?

That was only the figure to provide the same income for season ticket sales only, 1000 @ £199 = 665 @ £299.

I have responded to the rest of the numbers regarding average attendance in reply to Erik's post

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17 minutes ago, ITMAN said:

That was only the figure to provide the same income for season ticket sales only, 1000 @ £199 = 665 @ £299.

I have responded to the rest of the numbers regarding average attendance in reply to Erik's post

If we sold 1000 season tickets at £199 how we going to sell the same £299 especially when the chances are we will be going into recession economically.

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Walk up prices are still £20 per adult, thus less season ticket holders this season and more pay on the day fans may actually increase match day income.

If we had 1000 season ticket holders having paid £199 last year and say 500 fans consistently paying £20 a game we would have got £199K via season ticket holders and £10K a game via pay on the gate.

If we have 500 season ticket holders having paid £299 this year, and say 750 fans consistently paying £20 a game we would have got £150K via season ticket holders and £15K a game via pay on the gate. 

11 games at the rate of 750 walk ups would see us take in more than we would with double the season ticket holders and less walk ups the season before...

It would be interesting to find out what our actual take home on a match per match basis, in cash, was last season, having run the cheap season ticket offer. I would assume we would make more on a match per match basis this season due to having less season ticket holders.

Edited by Flea
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48 minutes ago, Flea said:
49 minutes ago, Forever a Shayman said:

If we sold 1000 season tickets at £199 how we going to sell the same £299 especially when the chances are we will be going into recession economically.

I agree that is the challenge, and based on the last figures provided we have only sold 180 S/T's so far. The 655 number is only for a like for like replacement to bring in the same revenue from S/T's.

48 minutes ago, Flea said:

Walk up prices are still £20 per adult, thus less season ticket holders this season and more pay on the day fans may actually increase match day income.

If we had 1000 season ticket holders having paid £199 last year and say 500 fans consistently paying £20 a game we would have got £199K via season ticket holders and £10K a game via pay on the gate.

If we have 500 season ticket holders having paid £299 this year, and say 750 fans consistently paying £20 a game we would have got £150K via season ticket holders and £15K a game via pay on the gate. 

11 games at the rate of 750 walk ups would see us take in more than we would with double the season ticket holders and less walk ups the season before...

It would be interesting to find out what our actual take home on a match per match basis, in cash, was last season, having run the cheap season ticket offer. I would assume we would make more on a match per match basis this season due to having less season ticket holders.

 

Flea, you are quite correct, if we were to be able to retain the same average attendances as last season, excluding any CV-19 restrictions around social distancing etc, but sold less season tickets, then yes the amount of revenue generated would be higher. However, the number of games needed to achieve the same revenue, based on 500 x £299 and 750 x 20 per game, would be 19 and not 11.

Taking a more pessimistic view, that is we will have CV-19 restrictions, and with a notional ground capacity of 1,000, then there are 2 ways to look at this. The first is to say Season Ticket holders take precedence, and magically we sell 1,000 season tickets. The second is, for example, to say we have only sold 300 season tickets and the rest will be pay on the gate.

Option 1 gives 1000 x £299 = £299,000

Option 2 gives 300 x 299 + 700 x £20 x 23 = £411,700

The evidence suggests that it would be better for the club not to sell any season tickets at all if it felt that it could fill the 1,000 seats for each game at the full price for entry, £460,000. I am not for one minute suggesting this is what would happen, but the numbers when looked at in this way make for an interesting discussion. The question being would the supporters be doing more good for the club by not purchasing season tickets, for next season at least, and accepting to pay the full price on the gate, if this helped to prevent a repeat of the "Project Playoffs" scenario? This one move would in effect increase the revenue of the club by almost more than was raised by "Project Playoffs" and on half the number of spectators in the ground. 

Obviously, all of this is merely a projection, and does not take into account whether the club's cash flow can survive without the influx of season ticket money before the season begins. There are other models that could be looked at, using the 1000 crowd limit, is it better for the club to have 300 season ticket holders at £299, paying in advance of the season beginning, or is it better to have 1,000 season ticket holders paying £50 a month for 9 months (Sept to May)?

Edited by ITMAN
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41 minutes ago, ITMAN said:

Flea, you are quite correct, if we were to be able to retain the same average attendances as last season, excluding any CV-19 restrictions around social distancing etc, but sold less season tickets, then yes the amount of revenue generated would be higher. However, the number of games needed to achieve the same revenue, based on 500 x £299 and 750 x 20 per game, would be 19 and not 11.

I think you are confusing a few things here, so let me clarify.

I will use ball mark figures here for simplicity. 

Say we get 2000 fans every game.

Last season we had 1000 season ticket holders who bought tickets for £199. That gives us just under £200K.

We also got 500 fans paying £20 (We will ignore the other 500 to make up for concessions / kids / tax for this purpose). That is £10K a game. 

Lets pretend we had all 23 home games. That gives us a full total of £430,000 at the end of the season.

 

For this season.

Say we only get 1500 fans every game.

We have 500 season ticket holders who bought tickets for £299. That gives us £150K.

We also get 750 fans paying £20 a game (We will ignore the other 250 fans here again to make up for concessions / kids / tax). That is £15k a game.

Lets pretend we had all 23 home games. That gives us a full total of £495,000 at the end of the season. 

 

We would have a loss of £50K on season ticket sales. However, we would make £5K extra each match day. By match day 10 in theory we have made that 50K back (5k extra a game x 10). Game 11 would put us at £435,000 for the season...

 

 

Another way to look at it was that last season if you had a season ticket, you basically got 13 games free, paying £200 for £460 worth of football (Note, I get Covid means in the end we didn't play 23 games, but for simplicity sake, lets go with that). A casual fan that went to more games than they missed last season who didn't have a season ticket would probably have paid more than £200 in entrance as a result.

This season the season ticket gives you the equivalent of 8 free games. So we can look at 5 games worth of "free" revenue also clawed back with this seasons season ticket offer. 

We then also factor in that it appears (Note, I have no evidence to back this up other than feelings of crowds - and many who have been going years will agree with me on this) that last season we added on Season Ticket holders to the gate even if they didn't turn up (So say we had 1000 ticket holders and 800 went through the gate to pay we would say the attendance was 1800 - however we may only have had 800 ST holders turn up etc...) suddenly the attendance figures without season ticket holders included look weaker etc....

 

 

The club need to make sure revenue is coming in. They need to be mindful of not bleeding the fans dry and destroying good will, however they also need to look at what brings money in. If we then consider that we also gave away a lot of free kids tickets - a good gesture, but it makes no money but increases the gate again - when we then start to look at the money being made on the gate each game, I bet we are talking a very small amount.. 

"Shayman101" supports town. Lets say last season he got a season ticket. He went to 15 games. He also got 2 free childrens tickets for his kids. His total cost was £199. This season he decides to not bother getting a season ticket. This season he only goes to 10 games. He pays £20 a game for himself, then another £5 x2 for his kids each game. Thats 30 x 10 - it ends up costing him £300 this season.

The value is still there in being a ST holder. Its £100 more this season, however if you start breaking it down per game, its costing £13. Then the club have to pay tax on that. Theres not much left there as profit then really is there? At £199, its costing £8.70 per game - and again thats what the club gets before paying tax. We know the budgets are tight, but lets look at things from a business point of view and look at why we are where we are with pricing. 

 

Sadly, it makes more sense to have less season ticket holders and more walk ups than it does to have tons of season ticket holders and fewer walk ups. Now the smart thing for fans to do is to buy a season ticket, as even with a £100 increase in price, it breaks down to £13 a game which is cracking value. The club really can't take a hit much greater than that considering we don't get food/drink money etc...  Those walk ups paying £20 a game will give us the bulk of match day revenue. If you think you can get to more than 15 of our 23 home games, then buying the season ticket is the smart move. If not, then the pay on the gate is the way forward. Those pay on the gate fans however are not hurting the club - they are actually helping it a hell of a lot more. 

 

Edited by Flea
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We must be one of the better off clubs in the league in terms of the number of fans who can be in the stadium socially distanced. Surely they will all have to be seated. If nothing has improved between now and the start of the season it is difficult to see how football outside the Premier League can be viable.

I wouldn't like to be in DB's shoes st the moment as he will have to dig deep for the club to continue and / or the fans will have to do the fundraising.

There are a mass of job losses coming up especially in hospitality and retail with the knock on effect from those.

At the moment we have been shielded from the economic effect of the virus but we still don't have it under control so we will be hit by a tsunami when the government pulls the plug on state assistance.

I will probably buy a season ticket when we know we can watch the games but do fundraising initiatives as well where at least HMRC won't have their VAT cut!

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6 minutes ago, Flea said:

I think you are confusing a few things here, so let me clarify.

I will use ball mark figures here for simplicity. 

Say we get 2000 fans every game.

Last season we had 1000 season ticket holders who bought tickets for £199. That gives us just under £200K.

We also got 500 fans paying £20 (We will ignore the other 500 to make up for concessions / kids / tax for this purpose). That is £10K a game. 

Lets pretend we had all 23 home games. That gives us a full total of £430,000 at the end of the season.

 

For this season.

Say we get 2000 fans every game.

We have 500 season ticket holders who bought tickets for £299. That gives us £150K.

We also get 750 fans paying £20 a game (We will ignore the other 750 fans here again to make up for concessions / kids / tax). That is £15k a game.

Lets pretend we had all 23 home games. That gives us a full total of £495,000 at the end of the season. 

 

We would have a loss of £50K on season ticket sales. However, we would make £5K extra each match day. By match day 10 in theory we have made that 50K back (5k extra a game x 10). Game 11 would put us at £435,000 for the season...

 

 

Another way to look at it was that last season if you had a season ticket, you basically got 13 games free, paying £200 for £460 worth of football (Note, I get Covid means in the end we didn't play 23 games, but for simplicity sake, lets go with that). A casual fan that went to more games than they missed last season who didn't have a season ticket would probably have paid more than £200 in entrance as a result.

This season the season ticket gives you the equivalent of 8 free games. So we can look at 5 games worth of "free" revenue also clawed back with this seasons season ticket offer. 

We then also factor in that it appears (Note, I have no evidence to back this up other than feelings of crowds - and many who have been going years will agree with me on this) that last season we added on Season Ticket holders to the gate even if they didn't turn up (So say we had 1000 ticket holders and 800 went through the gate to pay we would say the attendance was 1800 - however we may only have had 800 ST holders turn up etc...) suddenly the attendance figures without season ticket holders included look weaker etc....

 

 

The club need to make sure revenue is coming in. They need to be mindful of not bleeding the fans dry and destroying good will, however they also need to look at what brings money in. If we then consider that we also gave away a lot of free kids tickets - a good gesture, but it makes no money but increases the gate again - when we then start to look at the money being made on the gate each game, I bet we are talking a very small amount.. 

"Shayman101" supports town. Lets say last season he got a season ticket. He went to 15 games. He also got 2 free childrens tickets for his kids. His total cost was £199. This season he decides to not bother getting a season ticket. This season he only goes to 10 games. He pays £20 a game for himself, then another £5 x2 for his kids each game. Thats 30 x 10 - it ends up costing him £300 this season.

The value is still there in being a ST holder. Its £100 more this season, however if you start breaking it down per game, its costing £13. Then the club have to pay tax on that. Theres not much left there as profit then really is there? At £199, its costing £8.70 per game - and again thats what the club gets before paying tax. We know the budgets are tight, but lets look at things from a business point of view and look at why we are where we are with pricing. 

 

Sadly, it makes more sense to have less season ticket holders and more walk ups than it does to have tons of season ticket holders and fewer walk ups. Now the smart thing for fans to do is to buy a season ticket, as even with a £100 increase in price, it breaks down to £13 a game which is cracking value. The club really can't take a hit much greater than that considering we don't get food/drink money etc...  Those walk ups paying £20 a game will give us the bulk of match day revenue. If you think you can get to more than 15 of our 23 home games, then buying the season ticket is the smart move. If not, then the pay on the gate is the way forward. Those pay on the gate fans however are not hurting the club - they are actually helping it a hell of a lot more. 

 

Flea, I agree entirely with what you say. In fact on another topic earlier, the one around the S/C Golden membership I put just the same case, fans are underestimating the value to them of a season ticket when you factor in the the free child places, in fact if you took the max of 3 kids to each game you would effectively save more than the cost of the season ticket in the first place.

My statement that it would be game 19 before we achieved the same revenue, was referring to the point at which we exceeded the previous seasons total revenue, where as by game 9 we have corrected the imbalance due to the lower income from season ticket revenue. (£50,000 at £5000 per game).

The arguments that were had on the forum re the increase in the cost of the season ticket also failed to take into account the effect that fans not taking a season ticket but choosing to pay on the gate could increase the revenue for the club, but only if the same number of fans came through the gates. From what was said it could be a double edged sword, in that some fans who previously had a S/T @ £199 would then end up coming to less games because of the cost.

The question would still remain that if fans wanted to boost the budget for the club, would it be better to do this by buying a season ticket or would it be better to turn up and pay on the gate? We all know that season tickets are good value for the supporters, less so for the club, so is there an alternative way such as supporters buying a season ticket at full price but allowing them to pay for it in installments over 9 or 10  months? Or do something like Wrexham are doing and selling tickets but in blocks of 10 games? If the cost could be spread for the supporters and the club has a consistent revenue stream then it may be a win-win. Admittedly I am only putting this forward as a CV-19 response with a reversion to normal season ticket sales as soon as we return to normal, or whatever will become "normal".

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Buy a season ticket at £299, then also buy a Gold Supporters club membership at £20 a month.  You then get a few freebies, the "extra" money lost by being a ST holder is then returned, via the Supporters Club, tax free ;) 

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7 hours ago, Flea said:

Buy a season ticket at £299, then also buy a Gold Supporters club membership at £20 a month.  You then get a few freebies, the "extra" money lost by being a ST holder is then returned, via the Supporters Club, tax free ;) 

Already done that. What we now need to try and achieve is a way for those who are going to struggle financially to still be able to afford to go to games, along with a way to keep the next generation of young fans still coming to the Shay on a regular basis, as the loss of potential season ticket holders would possibly impact on this if we have less free childrens places.

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The 2,600 figure is based on their current capacity of just over 10,000. They have only 3 stands, all seater, that can be used as the Kop end is no longer in use. 

So far they are the only club I have seen who are not selling season tickets.

Edited by ITMAN
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WOW who would be a financial director?

love throwing figures around, indeed did it all my career.

At the end of the day it will all depend on the teams performance and results, the weather and the big unknown the VIRUS.

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