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TommyH72

I dont Like Doing This - But

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I think what most of us are saying is you aren't going to solve the problem by having an unbalanced support for one particular organisation or pressure group . It's just going to feed a backlash from those that need educating

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My fear is I don't trust our football authorities to make a proper stand. Look at the pathetic stance and lip service they give to "Kick Racism Out of Football". When the football authorities won't even condemn quite clear and obvious monkey chanting in places like Russia and instead fine players who speak out against it (Or even more comically, fine players more for having underwear advertising firms more) why on earth would you have any faith or trust in them to handle something as important and sensitive as this correctly?

I fully back the BLM movement, however I think at the moment with the current protesters politicising it so much with removal of statues and counter protests etc... it would be like lighting a match in a barn. If we could get back to the equality being the issue of BLM, instead of trying to whitewash history, then we would probably achieve more. 

At the moment the extreme on both sides have turned this into a battle ground against each other - and while that is happening we can't have rational debate and talk to solve the problem that does exist because at the moment all we have is people wanting either a fight, revenge or to further their own agendas. 

Edited by Flea

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40 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

We always seem to be poles apart. I am far from racist, sexist, fattist, gingeriest or any other "ist" you care to mention. You dont know me or anything about me Hoddie, so please refrain from casting aspersions. I just dont see why every cause that people want to champion has to be dragged into everything. I want to go to the football and watch football without any attachments to colour, creed or sexuality. Just that simple. 

Good on you! So stay off here if you dont like it!

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I don’t judge people on the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs or their sexuality etc. I judge them on whether they are a **** or not. Sadly there are a lot of **** about 

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BLM are now wanting police banned or not funded.  Take this away and see if BLM works in the African/American areas of America.  They will be out of control and slaughtering each other, no police to help them, lets see what happens.  Not all police are murderers.

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3 hours ago, ColinCanberra said:

BLM are now wanting police banned or not funded.  Take this away and see if BLM works in the African/American areas of America.  They will be out of control and slaughtering each other, no police to help them, lets see what happens.  Not all police are murderers.

"Defund the police" doesn't mean remove them entirely. It means transferring some of the police budget to other areas of spending.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/defund-police/612682/

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9 hours ago, Papa Lazarou said:

"You will never eradicate racism" is one of the most overused and ignorant statements ever!!!! 

What do you mean? Are you suggesting that one day racism will disappear? I'd like it to but fear it never will. Please elaborate as to why it's an ignorant statement. 

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2 hours ago, Hoddie said:

"Defund the police" doesn't mean remove them entirely. It means transferring some of the police budget to other areas of spending.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/defund-police/612682/

And if you think that will work you are way off track.  It wouldn’t last for 12 months until the so called suburban security are overtaken by gang leaders.   

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11 hours ago, Shaymus said:

Racism is sickening, but you'll never eradicate it, especially in America. 

Why? Nobody is born racist. Nobody is born hating people for any reason. It’s something we learn as we grow up, from our parents, our friends, from society. The main way we can eradicate racism (or sexism, or homophobia for that matter) is through better education.

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1 hour ago, Shaymus said:

What do you mean? Are you suggesting that one day racism will disappear? I'd like it to but fear it never will. Please elaborate as to why it's an ignorant statement. 

If we all adopt the attitude that it wont be eradicated then sadly it wont. 

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15 minutes ago, Papa Lazarou said:

If we all adopt the attitude that it wont be eradicated then sadly it wont. 

That's the whole point. Some don't want to. It's a worldwide problem. As has been pointed out in other circles, there really only two types of people - good and bad. I fall into the first. 

Edited by Shaymus

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5 minutes ago, ColinCanberra said:

And if you think that will work you are way off track.  It wouldn’t last for 12 months until the so called suburban security are overtaken by gang leaders.   

I didn't realise you were an expert. I don't claim to be either, but it strikes me as very odd that a country feels the need to call out its armed reserves because its already militarised police force can't cope. Surely that's an indication that something's gone very wrong along the way? Well we know it has, because it's not so long ago that the FBI were caught with their pants down, carrying out deliberate actions to stoke racial tension on behalf of the White House. Under Hoover I believe, but denied by successive governments until proof was found when protesters stormed a local FBI office. The government has since admitted that there was an official national policy to turn whites against blacks. It's history of course, hopefully anyway, but the policy lasted long enough that it helped embed perceptions, and they persist to this day.

Rather than keep throwing money at the symptoms, they could try tackling the problems at source. This is the crux of the 'defund the police' argument. Put more money into job creation, social services, education, housing, drug rehab, healthcare and all the public services we take for granted in the UK, perhaps things might start changing. Change won't happen overnight and I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise.

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11 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

Good on you! So stay off here if you dont like it!

I am astounded at the amount of "abuse" that seems to have been thrown my way on this thread. I've not written anything racist, or said anything other than all I want to do is go watch football for a couple of hours without the outside interference of any political issues. I dont get aggressive with any responses I make and yet as if to get their point over, loads of contributors to these threads take exactly that course of action, which is exactly how, when people of differing views come face to face, end up fighting. They have an inability to talk rationally and have a debate. So then, based on my theory, if Town were playing at home and the little announcer guy asks people to stand and observe a minutes silence for something or other that I object to, and you are sat behind me, and I dont stand up because I dont believe in the cause, which one of us is going to get aggressive? I already know the answer.

Oh, and by the way, I will continue to contribute, why should I stay off here. 

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47 minutes ago, Shaymus said:

That's the whole point. Some don't want to. It's a worldwide problem. As has been pointed out in other circles, there really only two types of people - good and bad. I fall into the first. 

Well those that dont want to need educating, or certainly their children do, so when they have children they can also educate them. That imo is the only way that this can be dealt with. The idiots that don't want racism eradicated will be eradicated themselves. 

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46 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

I didn't realise you were an expert. I don't claim to be either, but it strikes me as very odd that a country feels the need to call out its armed reserves because its already militarised police force can't cope. Surely that's an indication that something's gone very wrong along the way? Well we know it has, because it's not so long ago that the FBI were caught with their pants down, carrying out deliberate actions to stoke racial tension on behalf of the White House. Under Hoover I believe, but denied by successive governments until proof was found when protesters stormed a local FBI office. The government has since admitted that there was an official national policy to turn whites against blacks. It's history of course, hopefully anyway, but the policy lasted long enough that it helped embed perceptions, and they persist to this day.

Rather than keep throwing money at the symptoms, they could try tackling the problems at source. This is the crux of the 'defund the police' argument. Put more money into job creation, social services, education, housing, drug rehab, healthcare and all the public services we take for granted in the UK, perhaps things might start changing. Change won't happen overnight and I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise.

Hoddie I never said and never will say I am an expert on anything that word is used too much.  However I have worked with our indigenous people in the outback for many years.   The problems are huge, no matter how much money you spend on the problem it never seems to work.  What they need is education but when the nearest school is 200 miles away it is a problem.  I agree one hundred percent that money and lots of it should also be spent on drug and alcohol, it is a huge problem with our people in the outback.  This leads to family violence child abuse and rapes. This why many of them are in prison. The majority are beautiful people but it would be worse if not for the police who work in these areas. 

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5 minutes ago, ColinCanberra said:

Hoddie I never said and never will say I am an expert on anything that word is used too much.  However I have worked with our indigenous people in the outback for many years.   The problems are huge, no matter how much money you spend on the problem it never seems to work.  What they need is education but when the nearest school is 200 miles away it is a problem.  I agree one hundred percent that money and lots of it should also be spent on drug and alcohol, it is a huge problem with our people in the outback.  This leads to family violence child abuse and rapes. This why many of them are in prison. The majority are beautiful people but it would be worse if not for the police who work in these areas. 

Colin, can I ask you a serious question as you seem to be someone living in an area where there are still huge problems. Is this a cultural issue?

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1 hour ago, riccardo259 said:

Why? Nobody is born racist. Nobody is born hating people for any reason. It’s something we learn as we grow up, from our parents, our friends, from society. The main way we can eradicate racism (or sexism, or homophobia for that matter) is through better education.

Nobody’s born a bully but there will always be bullying

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17 minutes ago, Shaymen0 said:

Nobody’s born a bully but there will always be bullying

So should we accept it or try to eradicate it? It's the acceptance "there will always be"  that I find hard to understand 

Edited by Papa Lazarou

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53 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

Colin, can I ask you a serious question as you seem to be someone living in an area where there are still huge problems. Is this a cultural issue?

Hi Tommy it is cultural and the problem is that the Government and all the Majority of the social workers are from a European background.  They just try and make the indigenous people the same as them rather than letting them live their own way of life.  

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18 minutes ago, Papa Lazarou said:

So should we accept it or try to eradicate it? It's the acceptance "there will always be"  that I find hard to understand 

Is it not the case that there are people who by their very nature cannot talk or discuss issues, so they resort to tactics that are akin to bullying. It is a very basic instinct that goes back thousands of years. You only have to read these threads, if someone cant hold a reasonable written debate, they very quickly resort to abuse in one way or another. So if you were face to face with them having the very same debate, they would very quickly adopt tactics that would result in violence.

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Once again the argumentative ones want to turn something into a slanging match, barrage of insults etc.  I agree with the OP, sport and politics do not make good bedfellows.

Politics is serious, it affects everything about your way of life.  Football is relaxation, fun, away from the everyday pressures of life.  Keep politics and sport separate.

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4 minutes ago, ColinCanberra said:

Hi Tommy it is cultural and the problem is that the Government and all the Majority of the social workers are from a European background.  They just try and make the indigenous people the same as them rather than letting them live their own way of life.  

That's a great answer Colin, and it tells me a great deal. I obviously cant take up the thread on here as I would be accused of all kinds of "isms". But your comments would make for a really good debate that we just cant have. But thanks.

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3 minutes ago, bazza45 said:

Once again the argumentative ones want to turn something into a slanging match, barrage of insults etc.  I agree with the OP, sport and politics do not make good bedfellows.

Politics is serious, it affects everything about your way of life.  Football is relaxation, fun, away from the everyday pressures of life.  Keep politics and sport separate.

When this thread started Bazza45, that's exactly all I was trying to say. Shame you didn't jump in sooner. You put it far more eloquently!! 

Edited by TommyH72

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24 minutes ago, Papa Lazarou said:

So should we accept it or try to eradicate it? It's the acceptance "there will always be"  that I find hard to understand 

It’s been happening since humans put foot on the earth. Racists,bullying, religious differences. The only thing you can do is be nice to people. But like someone said earlier. There will ALWAYS be *****!

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I stand by the belief that most racism when it happens, or racist behaviours/thoughts, when done by the majority are done subconsciously and without intent to offend or even with knowledge of doing it. This is due to how as a society we have grown and adapted to what social norms are. This needs to change but its more a case of changing peoples mindsets rather than ripping everything up, shouting everyone down  and branding everyone who disagrees with you racist. 

For me, this is what BLM is about - its about the fact that black people, on the whole, are disadvantaged, often not intentionally, however very much subconsciously, due to colour - and this is evidenced by the lack of black people in positions of power or well paid jobs. So the question is, how do we get people to realise that actions they often don't even realise they do impact people. They say that first impressions often have a huge impact on how you gel or get on with people and if somewhere we have allowed a negative stereotype or perception of black people sneak into peoples minds at a subconscious level then that is always going to mean we have a problem - not on an obvious front, but in the back ground. Its not a case of saying "Oh this guy got hit/abused/turned down for a job because he is black, its more do you view 2/3 black lads stood on a corner to be more of a threat than 2/3 white lads etc... 

We need to tackle why we as a society have that divide, to educate people that everyone is equal. All lives matter, however at the moment, it appears black people are targeted more for abuse or negative means due to skin colour. We don't have a white lives matter in the same way that we don't have a straight pride - because as a general rule being straight or white would not put up the same barriers as being black or gay. 

What I have a problem with however is the ripping down of statues and the inevitable stand off with one group defending statues, the other one wanting to rip it down, then you have the likes of the police in the middle getting pelted with crap. This hatred off both sides is going against progress in my opinion as you can't win people over with anger and hatred, it has to be with understanding and education. 

I don't think BLM should be on football shirts, simply because the authorities have already shown they are incapable of dealing with race issues in the game. If you can not properly sanction clubs and crowds where clear monkey chanting goes on, but instead punish those that speak out about it, then your calls to want to back the BLM, while welcome, are hollow. I also have concerns due to the fact that some of those protesting the statues are linked to football clubs so it could become a "clash" of cultures and another flash point for fighting, which again takes from the actual main ethos and point of BLM.

It feels like many are hijacking the BLM movement for their own agenda and ultimately the understanding and re-educating mindsets that we need to see happen then won't as its just violence, abuse and name calling that we see. 

Edited by Flea

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