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Erik Everhard

America and the UK

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8 minutes ago, Norm said:

And was voted back in at the next election remember 

Yep, and mostly destroyed all the good done in the previous 6 years! Typical ****ing tory!

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6 minutes ago, Bubba said:

Dont worry, Ive worked out what you are like.

We are repeatedly told by people like yourself how divided we are as a country. But this division is stoked and encouraged by people like yourself. A self-appointed voice of liberal  progressiveness. If anyone disagrees with you, they are wrong and morally bankrupt. There is no respecting of alternative opinions.

Look at this weekend. There’s not (hopefully) anyone in the UK who looks back on slavery with anything other than disgust. Whilst there may be arguments for the removal of the statue in Bristol; arguments about Churchill, etc we cannot erase history. Yes, few ‘heroes’ of our past share the values that we cherish today, and most will have done things uncontroversial at the time.

In the past, we (hopefully you too) have watched in disgust as the Taliban have destroyed historical monuments with which they disagreed. But we should examine history not to shame its participants but rather to learn from it. Allowing the statue in Bristol to be disgracefully removed creates a dangerous precedent. Should the ‘right wing’ be allowed to destroy the Harold Wilson statue in Huddersfield because people didn’t agree with his history?

Allowing a mob to rule questions whether we live in a country where law and order matters and is disgraceful.

But, its similar to Brexit of course. The country has voted and the people should come together to make sure Brexit is a success. But those opposing it are in Barnier’s camp, not Britains. You would prefer the EU to hold the upper hand so that any prediction of a broken economy will come to pass. You want Brexit to fail so that you can remind us all that you’d told us so.

You would probably suggest that anyone who didn’t agree with the statue being torn down in Bristol, supports slavery. Similar to that people who voted Brexit were not only stupid, but racist. Yet the UK has consistently shown to be one of the least racist and most diverse countries in Europe.

People like you are part of the problem. We all know there are divisions in our country; you preach inclusion but only create division. You preach tolerance, but brand people who disagree with you as thick racists. You encapsulate everything that is wrong with the modern-day ‘progressive’ left.
 

Ha ha, yeh right! 

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28 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

Typical fence sitter, so by your inability to form an opinion you are condoning racists and their actions! Well done.

I have formed an opinion though and I expressed it earlier, there both ****ing dick heads  but for different reasons.

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56 minutes ago, Bubba said:

Dont worry, Ive worked out what you are like.

We are repeatedly told by people like yourself how divided we are as a country. But this division is stoked and encouraged by people like yourself. A self-appointed voice of liberal  progressiveness. If anyone disagrees with you, they are wrong and morally bankrupt. There is no respecting of alternative opinions.

Look at this weekend. There’s not (hopefully) anyone in the UK who looks back on slavery with anything other than disgust. Whilst there may be arguments for the removal of the statue in Bristol; arguments about Churchill, etc we cannot erase history. Yes, few ‘heroes’ of our past share the values that we cherish today, and most will have done things uncontroversial at the time.

In the past, we (hopefully you too) have watched in disgust as the Taliban have destroyed historical monuments with which they disagreed. But we should examine history not to shame its participants but rather to learn from it. Allowing the statue in Bristol to be disgracefully removed creates a dangerous precedent. Should the ‘right wing’ be allowed to destroy the Harold Wilson statue in Huddersfield because people didn’t agree with his history?

Allowing a mob to rule questions whether we live in a country where law and order matters and is disgraceful.

But, its similar to Brexit of course. The country has voted and the people should come together to make sure Brexit is a success. But those opposing it are in Barnier’s camp, not Britains. You would prefer the EU to hold the upper hand so that any prediction of a broken economy will come to pass. You want Brexit to fail so that you can remind us all that you’d told us so.

You would probably suggest that anyone who didn’t agree with the statue being torn down in Bristol, supports slavery. Similar to that people who voted Brexit were not only stupid, but racist. Yet the UK has consistently shown to be one of the least racist and most diverse countries in Europe.

People like you are part of the problem. We all know there are divisions in our country; you preach inclusion but only create division. You preach tolerance, but brand people who disagree with you as thick racists. You encapsulate everything that is wrong with the modern-day ‘progressive’ left.
 

What's your answer Gav? People on the left (fucking hell I hate this right and left nonsense) aren't allowed to talk about racism or the country's ills - or heaven forbid - their own opinion, because to do so causes further division? Does the same not apply equally across the political spectrum? Aren't you sowing division by throwing labels like 'leftie' and 'remoaner' around? People giving voice to their opinions, calling out injustice and challenging falsehoods, aren't creating division, those divisions are simply being highlighted as a by-product of speaking up.

The problem with liberalism is that you're not supposed to espouse liberal values, because for some unknown reason they offend so many people. As though the country isn't built on liberal values. Or rather, it is, but that's enough liberalism for now, let's try a bit or right wing xenophobia for a bit because we haven't had that in a while.

The UK used to be a country where the common man was downtrodden, kept in their place by a ruling class of whatever persuasion (monarchy, landed gentry, the church). The industrial revolution was powered by kids down mines and in factories. It had nothing to do with 'different times' and everything to do with the wealthy and the government not giving a shit about the poor. Things only changed because people spoke up. The poor began to organise themselves, sometimes through unions or alliances, sometimes with the aid of a wealthy champion whose conscious got the better of them. Ultimately, after WW2, the common man earned most of the rights we enjoy today, thanks to a Labour government who stood for their members rather than the wealthy.

Yet most people are somehow convinced that the unions are utterly evil. The same people will defend the right of a person who earned a fortune off the backs of slaves to be commemorated in statue form. You couldn't make this up.

And while I'm completely indifferent to the statue, it probably is time for the country to consign to history the philanthropists who earned their wealth literally off the backs of others. Leaving the statue up wouldn't have bothered me, but tearing it down doesn't bother me either, and if doing so helps to heal a rift that many of us simply don't see, then great. It would be better in a museum rather than at the bottom of a canal, but I'm sure that's where it'll end up.

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2 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

What's your answer Gav? People on the left (fucking hell I hate this right and left nonsense) aren't allowed to talk about racism or the country's ills - or heaven forbid - their own opinion, because to do so causes further division?

What causes further divisions is not peaceful protests, which I think is partly the point of the first post on this thread. It is when they get hijacked or turn violent.

Does anyone honestly believe a violent protest helps the cause of BLM? Dont people think it actually gives racist people an opportunity to further brandish black people as a problem? A demonstration turning into a looting session doesnt help the cause at all.

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1 minute ago, Bubba said:

What causes further divisions is not peaceful protests, which I think is partly the point of the first post on this thread. It is when they get hijacked or turn violent.

Does anyone honestly believe a violent protest helps the cause of BLM? Dont people think it actually gives racist people an opportunity to further brandish black people as a problem? A demonstration turning into a looting session doesnt help the cause at all.

The peaceful way has been tried for decades and the powers that be have made no effort to initiate any kind of change within society!

Time to tool up now and kick some ass!

 

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1 minute ago, chrisbo61 said:

The peaceful way has been tried for decades and the powers that be have made no effort to initiate any kind of change within society!

Time to tool up now and kick some ass!

 

What? So as a society we are the same as we were in the 70s? Your stupidity holds no bounds.

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4 minutes ago, Bubba said:

What causes further divisions is not peaceful protests, which I think is partly the point of the first post on this thread. It is when they get hijacked or turn violent.

Does anyone honestly believe a violent protest helps the cause of BLM? Dont people think it actually gives racist people an opportunity to further brandish black people as a problem? A demonstration turning into a looting session doesnt help the cause at all.

I don't think anyone's claiming otherwise, not least those who are out to protest peacefully. How exactly do they stop anarchists, wankers and other ne'er-do-wells from hijacking their protests? It seems as though people are tainting those with legitimate grievances with the actions of a minority bent on causing trouble. And because of that, the protests should stop.

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29 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

The peaceful way has been tried for decades and the powers that be have made no effort to initiate any kind of change within society!

Time to tool up now and kick some ass!

 

Let's raid the palace and storm parliament, what time are we kicking off ?

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45 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

What's your answer Gav? People on the left (****ing hell I hate this right and left nonsense) aren't allowed to talk about racism or the country's ills - or heaven forbid - their own opinion, because to do so causes further division? Does the same not apply equally across the political spectrum? Aren't you sowing division by throwing labels like 'leftie' and 'remoaner' around? People giving voice to their opinions, calling out injustice and challenging falsehoods, aren't creating division, those divisions are simply being highlighted as a by-product of speaking up.

The problem with liberalism is that you're not supposed to espouse liberal values, because for some unknown reason they offend so many people. As though the country isn't built on liberal values. Or rather, it is, but that's enough liberalism for now, let's try a bit or right wing xenophobia for a bit because we haven't had that in a while.

The UK used to be a country where the common man was downtrodden, kept in their place by a ruling class of whatever persuasion (monarchy, landed gentry, the church). The industrial revolution was powered by kids down mines and in factories. It had nothing to do with 'different times' and everything to do with the wealthy and the government not giving a **** about the poor. Things only changed because people spoke up. The poor began to organise themselves, sometimes through unions or alliances, sometimes with the aid of a wealthy champion whose conscious got the better of them. Ultimately, after WW2, the common man earned most of the rights we enjoy today, thanks to a Labour government who stood for their members rather than the wealthy.

Yet most people are somehow convinced that the unions are utterly evil. The same people will defend the right of a person who earned a fortune off the backs of slaves to be commemorated in statue form. You couldn't make this up.

And while I'm completely indifferent to the statue, it probably is time for the country to consign to history the philanthropists who earned their wealth literally off the backs of others. Leaving the statue up wouldn't have bothered me, but tearing it down doesn't bother me either, and if doing so helps to heal a rift that many of us simply don't see, then great. It would be better in a museum rather than at the bottom of a canal, but I'm sure that's where it'll end up.

An excellent post with some thought provoking points.

If I could highlight only 1 item it would be the distrust of unions you mention and how that occurred.

I should declare an interest I am an ex member of unite and my dad was the branch secretary of one of the transport unions.

I became disillusioned with them when I saw their antics on several successive projects I worked on (I was in a site management capacity) where the sole focus appeared to be putting issues in the way of progressing the scheme.

Construction generally is not a particularly unionised industry but some of the major projects do have recognition schemes in place and for whatever reason these do appear to attract a more militant view from the shop stewards and some of the members.

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19 minutes ago, Norm said:

An excellent post with some thought provoking points.

If I could highlight only 1 item it would be the distrust of unions you mention and how that occurred.

I should declare an interest I am an ex member of unite and my dad was the branch secretary of one of the transport unions.

I became disillusioned with them when I saw their antics on several successive projects I worked on (I was in a site management capacity) where the sole focus appeared to be putting issues in the way of progressing the scheme.

Construction generally is not a particularly unionised industry but some of the major projects do have recognition schemes in place and for whatever reason these do appear to attract a more militant view from the shop stewards and some of the members.

There needs to be a balance between employees and employers, and unions serve a necessary function in that relationship. They are up against an indifferent government, profit-hungry big business and shady off-shore interests, and are one of few defenders of rights which have been hard fought for and hard won over decades. I don't doubt that some are over-zealous, even abusive, especially on a local level, and some have managed to tip the scales too far and are reluctant to give ground, but if not for unions, we wouldn't enjoy any of the workers rights we take for granted today. With Brexit and the removal of the European Parliament's oversight over such things, unions are more important than ever right now.

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1 hour ago, Bubba said:

What? So as a society we are the same as we were in the 70s? Your stupidity holds no bounds.

On the surface yes we are diferent, but only because the bigots, racists etc have shamed into virtual silence by people that have more intelligence!

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56 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

Let's raid the palace and storm parliament, what time are we kicking off ?

Meet in an hour?

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24 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

There needs to be a balance between employees and employers, and unions serve a necessary function in that relationship. They are up against an indifferent government, profit-hungry big business and shady off-shore interests, and are one of few defenders of rights which have been hard fought for and hard won over decades. I don't doubt that some are over-zealous, even abusive, especially on a local level, and some have managed to tip the scales too far and are reluctant to give ground, but if not for unions, we wouldn't enjoy any of the workers rights we take for granted today. With Brexit and the removal of the European Parliament's oversight over such things, unions are more important than ever right now.

The company I was working for wouldn't be described as shady and whilst they were focused on maximizing their returns on the project I can assure you that that wasn't at the cost of the workforce.

Like you say striking the balance is the key.

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9 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

On the surface yes we are diferent, but only because the bigots, racists etc have shamed into virtual silence by people that have more intelligence!

Rubbish. Yes, there are still plenty of knuckle dragging racists but generally its nothing about being silenced. People are better educated and more open and accepting of other race and religions; certainly more than in past decades.

 

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13 minutes ago, Bubba said:

Rubbish. Yes, there are still plenty of knuckle dragging racists but generally its nothing about being silenced. People are better educated and more open and accepting of other race and religions; certainly more than in past decades.

 

If you say so!

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2 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

The peaceful way has been tried for decades and the powers that be have made no effort to initiate any kind of change within society!

Time to tool up now and kick some ass!

 

Said by a white man living in an almost all white middle class enclave of West Yorkshire. 

I live in a very multicultural city. I live about a mile and a half from a real multicultural area, and the area I live in houses people from different countries. 

Things are going ok and are working, more or less. 

Why is it that white people are trying to stir up trouble between races when they pretty much get along? 

Is the issue that anarchists are using the death of George Floyd to carry out their class war mantra to try and smash things up and cause anarchy? 

Seems that way to me. 

 

Edited by Erik Everhard
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4 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

Or the poles, Ukrainians, welsh miners!

And remember, he was only PM in name during the war, we had a government of national unity during the war.

And as soon as the war was over he was kicked out in favour of the labour party ,which went on to rebuild the country.

Attlee served one term before he was replaced by...Churchill. You make it sound as if the public totally rejected Churchill after the war and Labour embarked on decades of successful rule.

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3 minutes ago, Erik Everhard said:

I live in a very multicultural city. I live about a mile and a half from a real multicultural area, and the area I live in houses people from different countries. 

Things are going ok and are working, more or less. 

And obviously where it isnt 'more or less' working, its all the fault of the white population. Bit similar in Halifax where any problems in north Halifax is because of the indigenous white folk. 

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11 minutes ago, Erik Everhard said:

Said by a white man living in an almost all white middle class enclave of West Yorkshire. 

I live in a very multicultural city. I live about a mile and a half from a real multicultural area, and the area I live in houses people from different countries. 

Things are going ok and are working, more or less. 

Why is it that white people are trying to stir up trouble between races when they pretty much get along? 

Is the issue that anarchists are using the death of George Floyd to carry out their class war mantra to try and smash things up and cause anarchy? 

Seems that way to me. 

 

Fair point, I dont totally disagree with that sentiment!

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6 minutes ago, Bubba said:

And obviously where it isnt 'more or less' working, its all the fault of the white population. Bit similar in Halifax where any problems in north Halifax is because of the indigenous white folk. 

You are probably right!

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9 minutes ago, greg45 said:

Attlee served one term before he was replaced by...Churchill. You make it sound as if the public totally rejected Churchill after the war and Labour embarked on decades of successful rule.

Oh, sorry wasnt trying to confuse anyone!

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