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TommyH72

The Big Kick Off

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Certainly looks to be in jeopardy now. Something like 12 players already tested positive for Covid 19 on the first day back at training. Several high profile players outrightly saying that they wont play or train and Troy Deeney pointing out that no amount of money or pressure will make him put the welfare of his wife and children in danger. His 5 month old baby has a chronic breathing illness. Good lad Troy, lets get some real perspective into all this. Life is life and no price can be put against that, although loads of people think you can. Our school children and teachers are being forced back school when its quite clear that its unsafe to do so. And why, they are children, let them play and be happy and stop heaping loads of crap onto them, that will come soon enough.

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11 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

Certainly looks to be in jeopardy now. Something like 12 players already tested positive for Covid 19 on the first day back at training. Several high profile players outrightly saying that they wont play or train and Troy Deeney pointing out that no amount of money or pressure will make him put the welfare of his wife and children in danger. His 5 month old baby has a chronic breathing illness. Good lad Troy, lets get some real perspective into all this. Life is life and no price can be put against that, although loads of people think you can. Our school children and teachers are being forced back school when its quite clear that its unsafe to do so. And why, they are children, let them play and be happy and stop heaping loads of crap onto them, that will come soon enough.

The government seem to be not having much success in deflecting blame! People arent having it, and rightly so in my opinion.

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7 day isolation then they are back at work, not a disaster but glad it’s been picked up.

How can football players refuse to go back to work when our NHS and key workers are risking their lives with less testing every day. 

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44 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

Certainly looks to be in jeopardy now. Something like 12 players already tested positive for Covid 19 on the first day back at training. Several high profile players outrightly saying that they wont play or train and Troy Deeney pointing out that no amount of money or pressure will make him put the welfare of his wife and children in danger. His 5 month old baby has a chronic breathing illness. Good lad Troy, lets get some real perspective into all this. Life is life and no price can be put against that, although loads of people think you can. Our school children and teachers are being forced back school when its quite clear that its unsafe to do so. And why, they are children, let them play and be happy and stop heaping loads of crap onto them, that will come soon enough.

12 is pretty low considering. And no respect for Troy, he is in a privileged profession earning sums that others can only dream of. Make it work. Shower 20 times a day if he needs to, live elsewhere until the season is concluded. Plenty nurses and retail staff are doing this, some out of a sense of duty, some just to survive. I'm sure they'd love the choice to say, "sorry, bugger the rest of the profession and my colleagues who are only earning a few quid and who can't work unless I do, sod the wider population whose mental health might be improved by what I contribute to society." No, Troy can feck off the selfish prick.

And if you read the medical evidence about kids going back to school, you'd realise it's safer than them staying at home.

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45 minutes ago, Ash said:

7 day isolation then they are back at work, not a disaster but glad it’s been picked up.

How can football players refuse to go back to work when our NHS and key workers are risking their lives with less testing every day. 

On the other hand I prefer to keep the distinction between key workers and other workers, even when it’s footballers on a morally reprehensible wedge.

Nurses and other undervalued NHS workers deserve a proper pay rise, no ifs no buts. They should also be working in a better funded system with room for slack for when one-off crises happen, such as Covid-19 or going through a freak incident like a British winter. No argument. Meanwhile non-essential workers should be protected equitably. If footballers can’t work safely, and I’m not sure if they can yet, then keep them off the (training) fields be they a pampered millionaire or a furloughed apprentice at Pontefract Collieries. I’d watch the Bundesliga to see how their experiment gets along for the next month before being bold enough to continue ourselves. We need to take the lead of other nations where there’s no other evidence. I’m sure there’s other info backing up their decision, but in the main, what we’ve learnt is that careful and cautious causes the least damage here. Otherwise, I could be wrong!

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38 minutes ago, Pliny Harris said:

On the other hand I prefer to keep the distinction between key workers and other workers, even when it’s footballers on a morally reprehensible wedge.

Nurses and other undervalued NHS workers deserve a proper pay rise, no ifs no buts. They should also be working in a better funded system with room for slack for when one-off crises happen, such as Covid-19 or going through a freak incident like a British winter. No argument. Meanwhile non-essential workers should be protected equitably. If footballers can’t work safely, and I’m not sure if they can yet, then keep them off the (training) fields be they a pampered millionaire or a furloughed apprentice at Pontefract Collieries. I’d watch the Bundesliga to see how their experiment gets along for the next month before being bold enough to continue ourselves. We need to take the lead of other nations where there’s no other evidence. I’m sure there’s other info backing up their decision, but in the main, what we’ve learnt is that careful and cautious causes the least damage here. Otherwise, I could be wrong!

That's all well and good, but who's going to continue paying these non-essential workers on morally reprehensible wedges? Either they take the same risks as everyone else who's returning to work - and those who have worked throughout - or they break their contracts and go without. Given that most will be nursing insanely high mortgage and/or child maintenance payments, not to mention the odd addiction for sports cars, gambling, prostitutes and drugs, they'll almost all be in the same hand-to-mouth boat as most of us albeit on a different scale.

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1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

That's all well and good, but who's going to continue paying these non-essential workers on morally reprehensible wedges? Either they take the same risks as everyone else who's returning to work - and those who have worked throughout - or they break their contracts and go without. Given that most will be nursing insanely high mortgage and/or child maintenance payments, not to mention the odd addiction for sports cars, gambling, prostitutes and drugs, they'll almost all be in the same hand-to-mouth boat as most of us albeit on a different scale.

Good point. My son’s girlfriend’s brother (!!!) is a professional footballer. He has had a good career at League 1 mainly and at 33 his contract ran out at the end of April. He got married last year and has a nice house on a nice mortgage. Not asking for sympathy just pointing that his prospects now are to find a job and not hope for a new contract, reality has hit him and I’m sure many others. 

This reluctance to find ways of operating in a new Covid world really has to stop, a new mindset is needed in so many places, otherwise the cure is worse than the disease. Both my sons have worked throughout this crisis I’m proud to say.

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4 hours ago, Hoddie said:

12 is pretty low considering. And no respect for Troy, he is in a privileged profession earning sums that others can only dream of. Make it work. Shower 20 times a day if he needs to, live elsewhere until the season is concluded. Plenty nurses and retail staff are doing this, some out of a sense of duty, some just to survive. I'm sure they'd love the choice to say, "sorry, bugger the rest of the profession and my colleagues who are only earning a few quid and who can't work unless I do, sod the wider population whose mental health might be improved by what I contribute to society." No, Troy can feck off the selfish prick.

And if you read the medical evidence about kids going back to school, you'd realise it's safer than them staying at home.

Completely disagree right across the board, but I'm not getting into a bun fight over this.

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Eventually we are going to have to make the plunge in returning to normality. I also note Hoddie's concerns about mental health and that should not be dismissed.

With that said, I believe if its not safe for people to go to grounds to watch a game, we can't say its safe for teams to be playing them. Its not just about the players, but how about the kit men, many of whom are old guys, or the family of those involved? Football is ultimately a contact sport - how can we have integrity that the games are being played fairly and consistently under the current climate? Players on the pitch are going to be man marking each other, tackling and getting up close and personal, yet are expected to sit 2 meters apart when on the subs bench, or not to celebrate with each other after a goal. Its almost like we are picking and choosing when its OK to be having contact with each other here. 

I believe we should be looking at returning back to some normality, however in my opinion, sports, gigs and pubs are the stuff that I think should be towards the back of the queue at the moment. 

There are pros and cons to the return. Mental health of those stuck inside being a big contributor. However I just end up feeling we are probably a month or so too soon on this. The death numbers and infections are declining at the moment - not as much as I'd like, however to a degree that I think in a month or so we could start to talk about it then. I think it would be wiser to see if we get a second spike after the relaxation of the rules last week - and if one doesn't come, or it comes and quickly recedes, then we can look at football again. 

At the moment I think our focus should be more on local businesses returning to normal. Those are the people who we need to be supporting, those are the people who are a vital underpinning on our society and these will be the people who will need help if the economy stutters. The overpriced millionaires with their oil and blood money trying to keep their coin coming in isn't relevant here. 

Edited by Flea
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1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

I have 3 3-year olds at home approaching 70 days of lockdown. They are spoiled rotten by both sides of the family, couldn't want for anything. The have a huge garden to run around in with paddling pools, bikes, scooters, bouncy castles and trampolines, even a small roller coaster... I see the deterioration in their mental health and its getting worse, faster. And I'm sure most parents of young kids especially would say the same. And let's remember, some kids don't have gardens, live in tiny houses only able to stare at the same 4 walls. We're extremely fortunate. Many will be locked in with violent parents, drug abusers, depressed and stressed relatives, and some with be going without regular meals, such is the state of some communities. 

The evidence shows that most schools won't even see a single infected kid, and the measures in place will help mitigate though admittedly not nullify any risk of transmission. For younger kids who can walk to the local school, and older kids who can walk further afield, they are better off at school. Other countries that have taken similar steps have proven this. 

You have to remember that many schools have stayed open throughout for the benefit of the kids of key workers, many of whom who are in daily contact with the virus and the rest at increased risk of contact. There have been no outbreaks in schools despite this. 

And its not a bun fight just because someone disagrees with you and can articulate that disagreement enough to have a debate. 

The bottom line is we can't keep everybody locked up until we have a vaccine because that day may never come. We still haven't managed to create a successful vaccine against any other corona virus like SARS or MERS so it's a very real possibility.

If the NHS can cope, we need to get used to a new normal. Quickly. Because the NHS doesn't run on beans. 

The reason I refer to a "bun fight" is that I have come to understand that it's you Hoddie who has the belief at all times that your opinion is correct at all times. This is evident in just about every thread that comes onto this site. So although I am well capable of holding a reasoned debate on most subjects, I really cant be bothered in this case. I strongly believe that some of the decisions being taken at this time are wrong and are endangering peoples lives. And I have stated many times within these threads that I dont have much respect for the Premiership footballers most of the time, but why oh why do people immediately bring what is a life or death situation back to money. It is not a reasoned argument to say that just because someone earns ££££££ and some key workers only earn ££, that they should have to return to work. Why should they. But the bottom line here is, I just dont agree with the sentiment of some of the threads, that's my right as I see it. 

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6 minutes ago, TommyH72 said:

The reason I refer to a "bun fight" is that I have come to understand that it's you Hoddie who has the belief at all times that your opinion is correct at all times. This is evident in just about every thread that comes onto this site. So although I am well capable of holding a reasoned debate on most subjects, I really cant be bothered in this case. I strongly believe that some of the decisions being taken at this time are wrong and are endangering peoples lives. And I have stated many times within these threads that I dont have much respect for the Premiership footballers most of the time, but why oh why do people immediately bring what is a life or death situation back to money. It is not a reasoned argument to say that just because someone earns ££££££ and some key workers only earn ££, that they should have to return to work. Why should they. But the bottom line here is, I just dont agree with the sentiment of some of the threads, that's my right as I see it. 

Jesus... what do you expect? Me to state my opinion but immediately state I know it to be wrong? The problem with some of you is that you see in me what actually exists in yourself. Claim to like debate but it seems only if people agree with you.

For what it's worth, life and death is not quantifiable in easy terms. If it's safest to have everyone at home then why doesn't this apply to nurses, retail workers, bin collectors, HMRC staff, bus drivers, and all the others out there keeping the lights on, water flowing, internet turned on, etc.? If making sure that nobody got the virus was everything then everybody would be at home in various states of depression, malnourishment and neglect. We like in a society that places value on human life, but not to the extent that trying to save every life results in a breakdown of society. We ask the aforementioned 'key workers' to take risks that the rest of us are shying away from, in trying to strike a balance between their health and wellbeing, and the health and wellbeing of the country as a whole. That balance will shift over time because of any number of variables, the primary one being how we pay for everything. Footballers are part of that equation and are not exempt from contributing just because they're not as key as retail workers.

You think otherwise. Great. Put your buns down, you're safe here.

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It's OK for kids to gather in large groups but not OK for them to be in school ? Just local councils burying their heads in the sand because that's their mode of comfort . Most people are assessing their own risk and soon that will have to happen and things will have to return to some sort of normality

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19 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

It's OK for kids to gather in large groups but not OK for them to be in school ? Just local councils burying their heads in the sand because that's their mode of comfort . Most people are assessing their own risk and soon that will have to happen and things will have to return to some sort of normality

I think we have a modicum of the litigious society kicking in, which is why organisations such as Councils are being ultra cautious over their role in this decision making. Instead of showing leadership and saying we know there are problems with some schools, as in Victorian buildings, which are not fit for purpose, but we will do full risk assessments and open those which meet the strict safety requirements. 

This is what we all seem to crave after 3 months of lack of clarity from the centre, and the fact that most decision making or ability to act appropriately, is being devolved to the local organisations, either Health or Local Authority, now is the time for local politicians to step up and deliver what they were elected to do.

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25 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

It's OK for kids to gather in large groups but not OK for them to be in school ? Just local councils burying their heads in the sand because that's their mode of comfort . Most people are assessing their own risk and soon that will have to happen and things will have to return to some sort of normality

Kids in Denmark have been back in school for a month. They've adapted. We could adapt if everyone involved were trying to do so instead of trying to prevent it completely.

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47 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Kids in Denmark have been back in school for a month. They've adapted. We could adapt if everyone involved were trying to do so instead of trying to prevent it completely.

Hoddie, that's what we want, Can Do. Only not with some ridiculous promises to meet targets that cannot be delivered. As we say in my line of work "under promise - over deliver"

I think it was my Dad who used to say, "there's no such word as can't" 

Edited by ITMAN
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54 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Kids in Denmark have been back in school for a month. They've adapted. We could adapt if everyone involved were trying to do so instead of trying to prevent it completely.

I'm going to take a punt on the average Dane having more respect for the rules than the average Brit tbf. Sadly during the peak of the lockdown here too many just carried on as normal without a care in the world. If they wouldn't listen and be sensible then, how on earth can we expect them to help the easing of a lockdown now. Kids here will sadly mirror their parents. 

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It seems as though the government announce something, people get on their high horse about it, "we cant do that", "that's not safe" "that's confusing" etc etc. They then do it and find they can do it and get on with it. Seems a trait with som people to look at why they cant rather than how we can. 

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What did people expect from a BoJo government? Seriously? The guy near killed himself because he was stupid enough to shake hands with people who had been hospitalised with Covid-19. During a pandemic. We have a career politician who qualified in philosophy and economics in charge of the NHS. During a pandemic. He announced an arbitrary target for Covid-19 testing then changed the method of counting the day before 'meeting' the target. His department is under-reporting deaths so as not to cause a panic, while claiming to be over-reporting so as to explain the high mortality rate in the UK compared to other similar countries.

It's like someone put Frank Spencer in charge, with Frank Spencer as his deputy.

Edit to add:- I broadly support what the government has tried and is trying to achieve. It' puts me in a bit of a quandary having to defend their aims while condemning their ineptitude in carrying them out.

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22 minutes ago, Flea said:

Or if we are being cynical - 

The government are slow to respond, take "advice" to have herd mentality, then realise they have messed up (This is after the PM tells everyone its nothing to get overly worried about and is seen shaking every man and their dogs hand before getting the virus).

London gets it bad, the government realise they have cocked up, so then start to put us in lockdown. 

Herd mentality went down like a led balloon, however we get given mixed messages, told we are in a hard lockdown, yet no one enforces anything and quite a lot of people carry on as normal. We are told to isolate, keep away from each other, yet still have tons standing on bridges clapping the NHS and the likes.

The government tell us to keep alert, don't travel or go out, don't meet others. Unless you are working. Or exercising. Or want some food. Stay away from the old or the weak, unless you can't. Don't meet people from outside of your own household. Unless you are working, or out shopping, or out in the park where you should keep your distance but it might not be possible. 

We will close the schools, but keep them open. We will tell people we are in it together while we give our MPs extra allowances for working at home which cost us more than a 100 year old that is now made into a national hero for funding the NHS. We won't call out Branson and his ilk for doing sod all, but instead talk about bailing out the multinationals, because we are all in it together.

Then, when London is past its worse we will talk about getting back to normal. Yeah, areas outside of London aren't over it yet, but lets get back to normal anyway. Like, stay alert though. Don't go out in huge groups still, although go out for exercise and meet up with 6 people - although only those that are in your own household, but not those that are vulnerable. Go back to work now, unless you can't go back to work, in which case stay at home but work from home if you can, but if you can't go back anyway. 

Re open the schools, apart from those that are not going to re open as they don't view it safe. Travel again - however don't go to tourist places. Don't go to Scotland. Don't go to Wales. Use public transport again, but walk and cycle more. We are relaxing the rules, but now wear a face mask, but don't because they don't work. Or they do. 

Give so many contradicting statements, never pull anyone up for breaking any lockdown rules and then at the end you can do one of two things -  say its the publics fault because they went against the government advice, or take credit because somehow we have fluked it and some of the contradictory statements end up being correct.

 

So being cynical, we could say this government have made a bit of a pigs ear of it and are continuing to do so. However, they have made so many contradictory statements and confused so many people they can actually point to the correct advise and claim they told us what to do and we ignored it - because somewhere in all the statements they have got it right, but trying to work out what part of it is right isn't easy.

Who would have thought that the person most trustworthy, worth listening to and most sensible in all of this would be Nicola Sturgeon. 

It reminds me of a conference call I was on today. A document had been circulated for people to come back and comment on. Lot's of replies came back about spelling mistakes and punctuation or grammar. However, no comments about the actual fact hat some of the paper was actually talking bollocks.

So, if you want to get something past the general public, distract them with a few bits like Hancock's testing target, which distracts everyone from the real problem with care homes.

Or am I being cynical.....

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Having had dealings with Calderdale MBC over a number of months (still ongoing) it is clear that our council tax is funding a lot of dysfunctional dead wood that is badly in need of an auditor to step in and shake it all up . I can imagine that national government is a greatly magnified version of local government and can only wonder how much of the tax we pay is pissed into the wind

Edited by Wilder Bollox

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55 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

What did people expect from a BoJo government? Seriously? The guy near killed himself because he was stupid enough to shake hands with people who had been hospitalised with Covid-19. During a pandemic. We have a career politician who qualified in philosophy and economics in charge of the NHS. During a pandemic. He announced an arbitrary target for Covid-19 testing then changed the method of counting the day before 'meeting' the target. His department is under-reporting deaths so as not to cause a panic, while claiming to be over-reporting so as to explain the high mortality rate in the UK compared to other similar countries.

It's like someone put Frank Spencer in charge, with Frank Spencer as his deputy.

Edit to add:- I broadly support what the government has tried and is trying to achieve. It' puts me in a bit of a quandary having to defend their aims while condemning their ineptitude in carrying them out.

mickyflanagan hashtag on Twitter

Say's it all.....

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Use your bloody common sense it's really jot difficult. Avoid public transport where you can, go out to "exercise" not sit on a beach, although to some sitting is ****ing exercise!!!! People are choosing to go down the I am not that intelligent I need to be told what to do route at the moment! Take some responsibility and use your common sense. Surely everyone knows what we have to do to help suppress the virus by now. Wash your hands, social distance and no social gatherings. 

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Too many don't have common sense. It's been fashionable since I was a kid at least that education is something to be scorned. When I think of the places I've lived in Halifax, and the decent hardworking people increasingly being outnumbered by dumbass families raising dumbass kids, it doesn't bode well when the country's future relies on using a little common sense.

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