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1 minute ago, Shaytrev said:

I've answered the question numerous times, I never realised you were this stupid.

Link/copy your answer. Stop dancing.

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12 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Link/copy your answer. Stop dancing.

You will never, ever get a straight answer from trev, unless he can quote Breitbart he doesn't have an answer!

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2 hours ago, Bubba said:

I must admit how some are using the pandemic as a chance to political point score is depressing. No country could have been prepared for it - you could argue countries could have been better prepared but hindsight is a wonderful thing. There has to be a balance between preparing for some major 'unknown' event happening and the economics of preparing for it.

Whichever party had been in Government at this moment in time would have had failings and areas where they had fallen short. There is no thing such as perfection, certainly when it comes to running a country and there will always be holes to pick depending on which side you are on.

Take the numbers of testing last week as an example. The media (and sections of the public) were desperate to see the Government fail to meet its own target so that it could have another angle to attack the government from. The MSM in this country really is the pits. Too much political bias (on both sides) - one side happy to find fault after fault whilst the other acts as cheerleader.

Most people I know - especially the ones with no political bias - believe the government has done reasonably well.

We won't see eye to eye on this, but here's why I disagree.
It's obvious to me that the British government had a two week head start but blew it. Yes, any government would have struggled- it is a crisis after all and there's much more to come. Any British government would have inherited an austerity addled health service, for example- a common factor between the UK, Spain and Italy. Unlike Italy and Spain though, Britain had time to anticipate it, but didn't, and against the experience and methods of other countries chose a wildcard 'take it on the chin' strategy. 

We should not have wound up with 10% of deaths worldwide so far, and it's reasonable for people to be mad at what's been a shabby 2 months of far too many preventable deaths- most unforgivably in the health and social care sector where people have not been provided with adequate protective equipment. Whether you don't like the tone or not, it doesn't do any harm to demand of the government the same as what's being shown by ordinary members of the British public who are risking a lot as they follow behind with a mop and bucket.


 
    

 


     

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1 hour ago, Shaytrev said:

Are you purposely acting dumb or is it natural?

It matters because it seems people are scared to death because of this virus, the numbers are being wrongly inflated. If someone dies of Cancer it should be registered as such. Is that too hard for you to understand?

Having Cancer treatment weakens your immune system so you have to be careful at the best of times not to catch an infection if you catch a common cold or seasonal flu on top of the treatment it makes you feel worse but it won't kill you , Covid19 will kill you hence isolating and staying home instead of being careful.

Having Chemotherapy at the moment puts you at a higher risk of dying if you catch Covid19 as your immune system is so weak it  cannot fight this particular virus as it could other viruses ,so what you are saying is it's the cancer that kills you when the point of Chemotherapy is to try and beat the disease and many make a full recovery and live a normal life being cancer free.

Isolating and lockdown because a dangerous unknown virus is out there and protecting the vulnerable , which bit don't you understand.

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13 minutes ago, olitheshayman said:

We won't see eye to eye on this, but here's why I disagree.
It's obvious to me that the British government had a two week head start but blew it. Yes, any government would have struggled- it is a crisis after all and there's much more to come. Any British government would have inherited an austerity addled health service, for example- a common factor between the UK, Spain and Italy. Unlike Italy and Spain though, Britain had time to anticipate it, but didn't, and against the experience and methods of other countries chose a wildcard 'take it on the chin' strategy. 

We should not have wound up with 10% of deaths worldwide so far, and it's reasonable for people to be mad at what's been a shabby 2 months of far too many preventable deaths- most unforgivably in the health and social care sector where people have not been provided with adequate protective equipment. Whether you don't like the tone or not, it doesn't do any harm to demand of the government the same as what's being shown by ordinary members of the British public who are risking a lot as they follow behind with a mop and bucket.   

I dont overly disagree. The government has always claimed that it is science led. Now either they are lying, and using 'science led' as a get out, or there is merit to the 'science led' approach which may, in time, prove to have been the correct theory in dealing with the pandemic.

If they honestly have been science led then the scientists know better than you, I and the Government and we have to respect the decisions of the experts. There may be very honourable reasons for taking the 'science led' approach and it is something which would probably become clearer during any inquest. But I can just imagine the uproar had the Government ignored the scientists to follow their own agenda and resulting actions even if this had led to an earlier lockdown.

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6 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

They should have started to take this seriously in mid January but didn't . How many countries did ? 

No many ! We saw the Chinese build a hospital in what was it 4 days and even then thought it was just something that would affect Asian countries and didn't get too alarmed .

No excuse when Italian doctors were advising the British Government to lockdown and were ignored preferring the herd immunity model before realising that was a mistake .

Now we are looking like being the worst affected country in Europe .

Mistakes were made but nobody can say if they were in charge they would have handled it any better for certain .

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8 minutes ago, monk said:

No many ! We saw the Chinese build a hospital in what was it 4 days and even then thought it was just something that would affect Asian countries and didn't get too alarmed .

No excuse when Italian doctors were advising the British Government to lockdown and were ignored preferring the herd immunity model before realising that was a mistake .

Now we are looking like being the worst affected country in Europe .

Mistakes were made but nobody can say if they were in charge they would have handled it any better for certain .

Given the time it is going to take to find a reliable vaccine, the more the first wave of the population that get natural immunity, the better placed we will be to cope with a second wave. It is a harsh reality but no country will be able to eliminate CV19 or avoid a 2nd wave. Whether you like it or not, there are few, if any other, options in tackling this pandemic until a vaccine is found.

The 1st wave in countries that locked down early may have got away with lower casualties. However, it is when countries are hit with a 2nd wave that we may actually find out how efficient our governments 'science led' approach has been.

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33 minutes ago, Bubba said:

I dont overly disagree. The government has always claimed that it is science led. Now either they are lying, and using 'science led' as a get out, or there is merit to the 'science led' approach which may, in time, prove to have been the correct theory in dealing with the pandemic.

If they honestly have been science led then the scientists know better than you, I and the Government and we have to respect the decisions of the experts. There may be very honourable reasons for taking the 'science led' approach and it is something which would probably become clearer during any inquest. But I can just imagine the uproar had the Government ignored the scientists to follow their own agenda and resulting actions even if this had led to an earlier lockdown.

What worries me about the 'science led' claim is the fact the Cummings, the eugenisist, and others with political interests are sitting on the SAGE committee! Why? They are not scientists!

Just read that the actual scientists are now going to be meeting totally independently, with no political 'advisors' present. Makes you wonder with all the political presence at these meetings, how 'science led' they actually are!

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52 minutes ago, monk said:

Having Cancer treatment weakens your immune system so you have to be careful at the best of times not to catch an infection if you catch a common cold or seasonal flu on top of the treatment it makes you feel worse but it won't kill you , Covid19 will kill you hence isolating and staying home instead of being careful.

Having Chemotherapy at the moment puts you at a higher risk of dying if you catch Covid19 as your immune system is so weak it  cannot fight this particular virus as it could other viruses ,so what you are saying is it's the cancer that kills you when the point of Chemotherapy is to try and beat the disease and many make a full recovery and live a normal life being cancer free.

Isolating and lockdown because a dangerous unknown virus is out there and protecting the vulnerable , which bit don't you understand.

I don't think you understand anything at all. Spelling something out numerous times and you still play dumb. Not much hope for you.

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15 minutes ago, Bubba said:

I dont overly disagree. The government has always claimed that it is science led. Now either they are lying, and using 'science led' as a get out, or there is merit to the 'science led' approach which may, in time, prove to have been the correct theory in dealing with the pandemic.

If they honestly have been science led then the scientists know better than you, I and the Government and we have to respect the decisions of the experts. There may be very honourable reasons for taking the 'science led' approach and it is something which would probably become clearer during any inquest. But I can just imagine the uproar had the Government ignored the scientists to follow their own agenda and resulting actions even if this had led to an earlier lockdown.

If this really was *the* science, like the only advised method then I'm baffled why it diverged so much with what other countries had tried and tested. The UK government's goal was to try and find a way that would avoid these lockdown measures which they feared would be too drastic and disruptive to the economy. So even though most other countries in Europe had taken the WHO's advice of locking down they just did not want to face this reality. They must have had a choice, but they chose badly. I remember when the penny dropped after the Imperial College study was published but rather than admit they got it wrong they rather absurdly said "the science shifted" and people just seemed to go with that. :huh:  

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2 minutes ago, olitheshayman said:

I remember when the penny dropped after the Imperial College study was published but rather than admit they got it wrong they rather absurdly said "the science shifted" and people just seemed to go with that. :huh:  

But surely the science is shifting all the time? Its an evolving situation with a new disease. Each country doing their own research, some more advanced than others and I assume there is a large sharing of this information globally which no doubt brings up conflicts between results. There isnt really a right or wrong. As I said earlier, people are all too happy to question the actions taken, using hindsight as part of their argument, when maybe an appreciation of the uniqueness of this situation is shown.

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12 minutes ago, Bubba said:

Given the time it is going to take to find a reliable vaccine, the more the first wave of the population that get natural immunity, the better placed we will be to cope with a second wave. It is a harsh reality but no country will be able to eliminate CV19 or avoid a 2nd wave. Whether you like it or not, there are few, if any other, options in tackling this pandemic until a vaccine is found.

The 1st wave in countries that locked down early may have got away with lower casualties. However, it is when countries are hit with a 2nd wave that we may actually find out how efficient our governments 'science led' approach has been.

Its a wait and see scenario , in a few months time we will have a clearer picture of what has been the best approach but on what you have said it has been announced today that non emergency appointments at hospitals are being extended indefinitely to allow the NHS to cope with a possible second wave after lockdown has been lifted so they are expecting it or making sure they are ready either way.

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I know this is a football forum and many may not be interested but earlier today Paris police gave permission for horse racing to start next Monday and this at a Paris city track.

This will, as far as I know, be the first outbreak of professional sport within a few miles of our country.  It's outdoors, it's sport and it's dangerous.

It could turn out to be like the first domino in the pile falling because it will lead to pressure to start English and Irish horse racing.  Then football will say, look they are doing it, we need to get some matches on.

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10 minutes ago, Shaytrev said:

I don't think you understand anything at all. Spelling something out numerous times and you still play dumb. Not much hope for you.

Just going on what my oncologist told me.

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4 minutes ago, Bubba said:

But surely the science is shifting all the time? Its an evolving situation with a new disease. Each country doing their own research, some more advanced than others and I assume there is a large sharing of this information globally which no doubt brings up conflicts between results. There isnt really a right or wrong. As I said earlier, people are all too happy to question the actions taken, using hindsight as part of their argument, when maybe an appreciation of the uniqueness of this situation is shown.

And as I said earlier, for some odd reason deciding (in most cases it would seem for political reasons) that our government's approach has been much worse than other countries. Not sure I would hold up the "Italian science" or "Spanish science" in higher esteem than our own, yet somehow not following their lead appears to have been a grave error in the eyes of some.

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9 minutes ago, greg45 said:

yet somehow not following their lead appears to have been a grave error in the eyes of some.

On the face of it yes, but maybe the time to judge will be when a 2nd wave comes.

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9 minutes ago, greg45 said:

And as I said earlier, for some odd reason deciding (in most cases it would seem for political reasons) that our government's approach has been much worse than other countries. Not sure I would hold up the "Italian science" or "Spanish science" in higher esteem than our own, yet somehow not following their lead appears to have been a grave error in the eyes of some.

Do not think the approach was necessarily incorrect. The main criticism was that it was slow given the fact we had forewarning of what was coming. Bojo missed five Cobra meetings unheard of before Blair and Brown missed 3 meetings when on state visits in 10 years of premiership 

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18 minutes ago, monk said:

Just going on what my oncologist told me.

Just what our oncologist told us that is why we are banned from going  to St James Far better advice than from any right wing conspiracy theorist with no medical experience 

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3 minutes ago, Bill Atkins said:

Just what our oncologist told us that is why we are banned from going  to St James Far better advice than from any right wing conspiracy theorist with no medical experience 

I had my treatment at St James before this outbreak occured so I was quite lucky , if you can use the word "Lucky " when referring to cancer .

It's horrendous for anyone battling this disease and having life saving treatment cancelled due to this virus is beyond words 

Stay safe mate and best wishes to you and your family.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, monk said:

I had my treatment at St James before this outbreak occured so I was quite lucky , if you can use the word "Lucky " when referring to cancer .

It's horrendous for anyone battling this disease and having life saving treatment cancelled due to this virus is beyond words 

Stay safe mate and best wishes to you and your family.

 

 

Thank you

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1 hour ago, Shaytrev said:

I don't think you understand anything at all. Spelling something out numerous times and you still play dumb. Not much hope for you.

Your point (I think) is that some people who would die soon anyway but contract COVID-19 at the very end of their life are having their deaths recorded as COVID-19.

What is the percentage please?

Because other people have illnesses they are being treated for and are hopeful of a good prognosis, but COVID-19 puts pay it.

Others have illnesses that will kill them one day, maybe this year, maybe next, maybe in 5 years, but COVID-19 finishes them off. 

Others have existing illnesses that may or may not kill them, with a completely uncertain life expectancy.

Others have illnesses which are usually manageable but made them more vulnerable to COVID-19.

Others are just older and therefore weaker, but not necessarily at the end of their life when they catch this terrible disease.

How should all these deaths be recorded Trev?

And others, like my friend's Dad, were fit as a fiddle (57 years old but fitter than most 30 year olds) with no underlying conditions, yet COVID-19 took him down in a week. 

I should also reiterate that the main driver for this lockdown is to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed, which it would be if no measures were put in place.  As Hoddie has pointed out, the critical care numbers have sky-rocketed even with the lockdown in place!  Not to mention the doctors and nurses who fall ill (or worse) to this incredibly contagious virus.

The death rate is almost secondary.

Edited by never_shay_die
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1 minute ago, never_shay_die said:

Your point (I think) is that some people who would die very soon anyway but contract COVID-19 at the very end of their life are having their deaths recorded as COVID-19.

What is the percentage please?

Because other people have illnesses they are being treated for and are hopeful of a good prognosis, but COVID-19 puts pay it.

Others have illnesses that may kill them one day, maybe this year, maybe next, maybe in 5 years, but COVID-19 finishes them off. 

Others have illnesses which are usually manageable but made them more vulnerable to COVID-19.

And others, like my friend's Dad, were fit as a fiddle (57 but fitters than most people half his age) with no underlying conditions, yet COVID-19 took him down in a week. 

And beyond the death rate (I say once again) the main driver for this lockdown is to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed which it would be if no measures were put in place.  The death rate is almost secondary.

No point wasting time on that clown! If you painted him black he'd argue it was white!

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