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Mad money, and politics and history and international law, and climate change, and Brexit, and Chinese imports, and Diane Abbott, and Donald Trump, and the General Election, and the NHS.

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10 hours ago, hunsworthhound said:

Perhaps we could have comments on this. Labour have told us no one on less than £85,000 a year will pay more tax they have stated this over and over again.

Well what about this a bloke works full time he earns £35,000 a year his wife doesn't  work as they have children and she's a stay home mum. Currently he can claim part of her personal tax allowance worth about £250 per year. Labour will stop this, less than £85,000 a year and more tax. It affects about  400,000. Angela Rayner when pressed on this said Labours policy would mean he would pay less child care. He doesn't  need it his wife looks after the kids. Labour are still economically  illiterate. 

Or maybe you're biased and refuse to accept the regular annual increase in allowances will more than cover the loss of MCA? 

Even if it doesn't, how is their claim any worse than the one the Tories made in 2010, "we will not raise VAT" only to then raise it making everyone poorer?

Where were your claims of economic Illiteracy then? 

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7 hours ago, Flea said:

Can someone explain this to me -

Last time Labour were in power and they handed it over to the Conservatives we had the famous "no money left in the pot" message left. 

Labour supporters are now crying that the Conservatives have been reckless with spending, having spent more than any other government etc...

Labour release their manifesto that is outspending what the Conservatives plan to do to the ratio of 4/1 at the very least. 

So, the government that left the pot dry and has been vocal about the Conservatives spending more than any other government plan to spend 4 times more than this governments projected costs if put into power. 

How is this meant to work?

I love the plans and ideas that Labour have put forward, however they are simply unobtainable with the current financial climate and there is no proper explanation on how they plan to do this. They plan to do this by taxing the lowest paid less, pay them more per hour, however also make them take 4 day weeks. I'm sorry, non of it adds up. No one is currently working 50+ hours a week through choice, its through need. Its OK promising to raise the minimum wage, however if you then cut the working week down so people are working less hours, are you not shooting the same people in the foot there?

The note is a joke! A joke started by the Tory chancellor in the 60s, he left James callaghan a note apologising for the mess he left. It's now a tradition, but for some reason Liam Byrne decided to make an issue out of it(lie). He has since said he regrets doing it but damage done and the turkeys are it up!

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9 hours ago, Flea said:

Can someone explain this to me -

Last time Labour were in power and they handed it over to the Conservatives we had the famous "no money left in the pot" message left. 

Labour supporters are now crying that the Conservatives have been reckless with spending, having spent more than any other government etc...

Labour release their manifesto that is outspending what the Conservatives plan to do to the ratio of 4/1 at the very least. 

So, the government that left the pot dry and has been vocal about the Conservatives spending more than any other government plan to spend 4 times more than this governments projected costs if put into power. 

How is this meant to work?

I love the plans and ideas that Labour have put forward, however they are simply unobtainable with the current financial climate and there is no proper explanation on how they plan to do this. They plan to do this by taxing the lowest paid less, pay them more per hour, however also make them take 4 day weeks. I'm sorry, non of it adds up. No one is currently working 50+ hours a week through choice, its through need. Its OK promising to raise the minimum wage, however if you then cut the working week down so people are working less hours, are you not shooting the same people in the foot there?

I don't know if you're genuinely interested in debating this, but here goes nothing.

The note was a joke, a tradition from one Chancellor to the next over the decades. Political capital was made out of it by the incoming Chancellor, either to be malicious or because he was naive. Regardless, the 'pot wasn't dry' because Labour spent it all, it was dry because the government bailed out the banks after reckless behaviour before, during and following a global bank crisis. The Tories voted in favour of this action so the colour of the government doesn't really matter.

It's not about spending, it's about borrowing. But, if you want to talk about spending, the Tories have spent more in every year since 2010 than any previous UK government in modern times. In real terms. In order to do this they have also borrowed more in 9 years than every single previous Labour government have ever done added together. Again, in real terms. They also borrowed much more than they claimed Labour would have done had they won the 2010 election.

Now some would say that they had to spend and borrow more to cover the reckless spending and the debts incurred by Labour previously. But a quick look at the facts says otherwise. The country is paying £50bn in interest a year (or at least was last time I checked). This is a huge amount of money but at most amounts to £450bn over the 9 years, assuming the interest payments were as high as £50bn every year - which they weren't, but for the sake of argument... Now, consider that the Tories spent over £200bn more last year than Labour did in their last year in government, so what explains the additional £150bn? And the same is true for the other 8 years, though the figures are different.

The Tories have doubled the national debt in 9 years. They and their supporters blame Labour but it just doesn't stack up.

They borrowed more. They spent more. They had the most tax receipts. Yet somehow managed to enforce the most biting period of austerity since WW2 while giving tax relief to the extremely wealthy. They promised not to raise VAT and yet that was their first act in government. They promised to close the tax gap (make sure the tax due was actually paid), and the gap has grown. They promised to deal with those exposed in the Panama Papers scandal, and similar ones, actual tax evaders, yet have prosecuted a grand total of zero people.

If Labour are economically illiterate, what does that make the Tories?

Regards Labour's future spending plans, I'm not going to defend them. On face value they look ridiculous. But then we have to remember that the UK created the NHS and launched the social security system despite being on its arse after the war. They did this despite being in the greatest debt any country in history has ever been. It's possible to redirect an economy despite having to rely on borrowing, Thatcher proved as much. Cameron didn't.

You also have to remember that spending on one service can reduce the pressures on others. A few examples. Increasing the community health budget can reduce bed blocking in the NHS. Sure Start centres can reduce petty crime and anti-social behaviour. Increasing A&E provision can help get ambulances back on the road quicker. Increasing police numbers can make insurance more affordable. Investing in infrastructure creates jobs, helps people build a pension pot, and creates social mobility. It also increases the skills of your workforce which can then be exported. Funding adult education works the same.

It's not as simple as saying "they're going to spend more money and that's bad."

It's about how effective the spending is. Short-term borrowing is fine if the long-term gains can support it. And that's the judgement you have to make.

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What is a pleasant surprise is our economy is still quite buoyant despite remainers, diddlers & fiddler's best attempts at wrecking it to fulfill their doom & gloom prophecies.

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46 minutes ago, Roy Race said:

What is a pleasant surprise is our economy is still quite buoyant despite remainers, diddlers & fiddler's best attempts at wrecking it to fulfill their doom & gloom prophecies.

By buoyant I assume you mean growth in the economy? Sadly growth means in this case debt, and most of that debt is personal debt, we have the second highest amount of personal debt after the USA! Make of that what you will.

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3 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

By buoyant I assume you mean growth in the economy? Sadly growth means in this case debt, and most of that debt is personal debt, we have the second highest amount of personal debt after the USA! Make of that what you will.

Jesus are you now saying growth is a bad thing? Can anyone win in your world? I assume the Labour party can, but anyone else?

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39 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

By buoyant I assume you mean growth in the economy? Sadly growth means in this case debt, and most of that debt is personal debt, we have the second highest amount of personal debt after the USA! Make of that what you will.

By buoyant I mean it's business as usual for most, what we now possess of manufacturing is still doing just that & appear to be selling the end product, the pound is OK and the UK shares market is also steady. Quite amazing, the anti Brexit naysayers are being proven wrong even with their best efforts to wreck our economy in the name of being proven right . Of course at some point their forecasts are bound to be correct if they continue to consign us to stagnancy.

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25 minutes ago, Roy Race said:

By buoyant I mean it's business as usual for most, what we now possess of manufacturing is still doing just that & appear to be selling the end product, the pound is OK and the UK shares market is also steady. Quite amazing, the anti Brexit naysayers are being proven wrong even with their best efforts to wreck our economy in the name of being proven right . Of course at some point their forecasts are bound to be correct if they continue to consign us to stagnancy.

The pound lost 30% value after the vote, inward investment is at an all time low, the b of e has pumped nearly 4 billion into the economy since 16. Our productivity is one of the lowest in Europe!

What planet are you living on? Oh yes the brexiteers land of mill and honey and free unicorns for everyone!

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1 hour ago, greg45 said:

Jesus are you now saying growth is a bad thing? Can anyone win in your world? I assume the Labour party can, but anyone else?

Depends what kind of growth, growth through productivity is fine ,the economy growing through debt is unsustainable and will end how most Tory economic policy ends!

Recession. 

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11 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

The pound lost 30% value after the vote, inward investment is at an all time low, the b of e has pumped nearly 4 billion into the economy since 16. Our productivity is one of the lowest in Europe!

What planet are you living on? Oh yes the brexiteers land of mill and honey and free unicorns for everyone!

Obviously. not the same planet as you, think you will find the unicorns only exist in commy Corbyns version of eutopia

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1 hour ago, Roy Race said:

Obviously. not the same planet as you, think you will find the unicorns only exist in commy Corbyns version of eutopia

No utopia just obviously better than what we have now!

What policies of the Tories are you particularly fond of?

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4 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

No utopia just obviously better than what we have now!

What policies of the Tories are you particularly fond of?

Fondness for policies is not particular trait I possess, reality on the other hand...…….

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19 minutes ago, Roy Race said:

Fondness for policies is not particular trait I possess, reality on the other hand...…….

Oh dear, youre telling me you vote Tory but dont know what their policies are! unbelievable. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

Oh dear, youre telling me you vote Tory but dont know what their policies are! unbelievable. 

 

 

That sums up 95% of all voters I reckon.

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12 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

That sums up 95% of all voters I reckon.

Tory voters ! They literally spend all their lives moaning about how shite things are and then vote for the party that caused the mess in the first place.

My favourite saying sums them up, turkeys voting for xmas!

State of the roads= Gov underfunding!

Massive NHS waiting lists= Gov underfunding

Homeless = Gov underfunding

No police=Gov underfunding

The list is endless and the turkeys seem to take some pride in the gov that underfunded everything!

I cant get my head round it.

 

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No government has a perfect record but for the most part I agree with you. The Tories have somehow created a narrative that allows them to blame everyone else for the mess they've made. Obviously, having most of the country's media on side helps with that. You know, those newspapers and NGOs run by off-shore millionaires/billionaires and edited in such a way that they sell the most papers/adverts over actually telling the truth or being objective.

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4 minutes ago, Wilder Bollox said:

If the Tories have achievable policies it more than Labour 

What are these achievable policies?

Reducing the deficit by 2015! Reducing government borrowing!

Creating one simple benefit payment!

Getting Brexit done!

Dont make me laugh, they are a joke.

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https://www.ft.com/content/d6f56834-0f78-11ea-a225-db2f231cfeae

Seems some rather clever people agree with Corbyn. 

By 2010, having had to address a financial crisis they didn't cause, the then Labour administration had ensured that government receipts were rising. The official figures show that. Given the scale of the crisis and the extent of the intervention that it necessitated, I'd say that's a fairly credible record.

Osborne took over and changed course. As early as 2012-13 he realised he'd got it wrong and had to change course again, revising all of his targets. However the direction of travel continued. As Phillip Hammond has now admitted, that was a mistake. 

The Conservatives have had years to get it right. They haven't. To blame that on Labour is to rewrite history. Their policies, their failures. 

The economy at the moment is driven by consumption and swollen with private debt. That is unhealthy and unsustainable.  

Whatever your politics, that's what the actual figures show. 

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13 minutes ago, 154 Hopper Avenue said:

https://www.ft.com/content/d6f56834-0f78-11ea-a225-db2f231cfeae

Seems some rather clever people agree with Corbyn. 

By 2010, having had to address a financial crisis they didn't cause, the then Labour administration had ensured that government receipts were rising. The official figures show that. Given the scale of the crisis and the extent of the intervention that it necessitated, I'd say that's a fairly credible record.

Osborne took over and changed course. As early as 2012-13 he realised he'd got it wrong and had to change course again, revising all of his targets. However the direction of travel continued. As Phillip Hammond has now admitted, that was a mistake. 

The Conservatives have had years to get it right. They haven't. To blame that on Labour is to rewrite history. Their policies, their failures. 

The economy at the moment is driven by consumption and swollen with private debt. That is unhealthy and unsustainable.  

Whatever your politics, that's what the actual figures show. 

But................something, something corbyns a comernist

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3 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

But................something, something corbyns a comernist

Don't mix up different issues. There are multiple reasons why someone may choose to vote for one party, or not choose to vote for another. It is very unlikely there is anyone (apart from it would appear the staunchest Labour supporters) who likes absolutely everything about one of the parties.

Someone may be content to vote for the Tories for example not because they believe their economic record has been brilliant over the last 10 years, but because they don't want another referendum. This may be the one issue they vote on. Equally, someone may feel so strongly about nationalising the water industry that they choose to vote Labour purely on that basis. Who knows, that's the beauty of democracy and the beauty of choice.

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Should add that, when seeking to sell their own spending plans, the Conservatives speak of the 'headroom' our strong and healthy economy has afforded them and the way in which they can now start to splash the case.
Again, when you look behind the headlines and soundbites, the actual figures tell a rather different story.
Growth in the UK has been weaker than in other G7 countries since 2016, has been volatile in 2019 and was still at only 1.3% in the second quarter of this year.
Private sector investment is particularly weak and is, again, the lowest in the G7. The financial sector isn't investing in the 'real economy' but is channelling money into finance and insurance. That's not how you achieve long-term growth. 
Because investment and productivity are weak, relatively strong employment figures mean the growth is consumption-led. In simple terms, nobody's investing so the economy grows on spending. That's not a healthy economic picture.  Earnings can't continue to rise in those conditions. 

A change of course is needed. The Labour Party are offering that. That's why many far cleverer than I see some force and sense in their plans.

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1 minute ago, greg45 said:

Don't mix up different issues. There are multiple reasons why someone may choose to vote for one party, or not choose to vote for another. It is very unlikely there is anyone (apart from it would appear the staunchest Labour supporters) who likes absolutely everything about one of the parties.

Someone may be content to vote for the Tories for example not because they believe their economic record has been brilliant over the last 10 years, but because they don't want another referendum. This may be the one issue they vote on. Equally, someone may feel so strongly about nationalising the water industry that they choose to vote Labour purely on that basis. Who knows, that's the beauty of democracy and the beauty of choice.

Absolutely! Sadly, make the wrong choice and we all suffer!(see last ten years).

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1 hour ago, chrisbo61 said:

Oh dear, youre telling me you vote Tory but dont know what their policies are! unbelievable. 

 

 

I'm not telling you anything, my vote is between me and the ballot box. The only thing unbelievable! is your arrogance in considering any opinion other than yours own is not worth consideration & belittling anyone with an alternative view to your own.

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5 minutes ago, Roy Race said:

I'm not telling you anything, my vote is between me and the ballot box. The only thing unbelievable! is your arrogance in considering any opinion other than yours own is not worth consideration & belittling anyone with an alternative view to your own.

Snowflake! Defend the Tories and it's open season mate!

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