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born to moan

Mad money, and politics and history and international law, and climate change, and Brexit, and Chinese imports, and Diane Abbott, and Donald Trump, and the General Election, and the NHS.

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Years ago, the government sold off two-thirds of all buildings and estates owned and operated by HMRC, in order to rent them back at punitive rates. They were sold to a company based off-shore (in the British Virgin Islands I think), which was owned by a UK-based individual who was under investigation for tax evasion. As if it weren't bad enough that assets already owned by the UK (i.e. us) were sold off resulting in an annual cost, they sold them to a company they knew to be based off-shore and unlikely to pay tax in the UK. The fact the overall beneficiary was potentially already sticking two fingers up to HMRC didn't seem to matter at all.

A 2017 report concluded that this deal should never have been expected to result in value-for-money for the UK treasury, because HMRC had guaranteed to pay more in rent than the company incurred in interest costs to finance the up-front payment of £370m. The deal runs until 2021 and sees the government - us - pay for properties that have long-since been vacated by HMRC.

This is just one example of how privatisation happens via the back door. And it's rarely for the public good. It usually serves only to benefit the government of the day who gets a short-term cash boost at long-term cost to the country.

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4 minutes ago, Flea said:

Abbot’s public speaking is shocking. Labour shouldn’t have her anywhere near a microphone.

That aside, she is a bloody fantastic MP and her record of achievements are up there with the best of them. It is people like her that will make Labour great again once the current shambles get kicked into the long grass. 

I've said exactly the same all along. Stop courting the media and get back to what you do best.

I know of someone who was basically disowned by his mother for being gay. His mother is a devout Christian and it's against her beliefs. Anyway, the poor guy was only mid to late teens and he found himself homeless and pretty much alone. So he turned to Diane Abbott and by all accounts she was brilliant with him. She helped him to find somewhere to live and a job etc and basically did what a good MP should do and probably more besides.

The chap in question now has a good job and a partner who also had a good job and is very successful.

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5 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Years ago, the government sold off two-thirds of all buildings and estates owned and operated by HMRC, in order to rent them back at punitive rates. They were sold to a company based off-shore (in the British Virgin Islands I think), which was owned by a UK-based individual who was under investigation for tax evasion. As if it weren't bad enough that assets already owned by the UK (i.e. us) were sold off resulting in an annual cost, they sold them to a company they knew to be based off-shore and unlikely to pay tax in the UK. The fact the overall beneficiary was potentially already sticking two fingers up to HMRC didn't seem to matter at all.

A 2017 report concluded that this deal should never have been expected to result in value-for-money for the UK treasury, because HMRC had guaranteed to pay more in rent than the company incurred in interest costs to finance the up-front payment of £370m. The deal runs until 2021 and sees the government - us - pay for properties that have long-since been vacated by HMRC.

This is just one example of how privatisation happens via the back door. And it's rarely for the public good. It usually serves only to benefit the government of the day who gets a short-term cash boost at long-term cost to the country.

Going off tack but slightly connected is a problem Leeds City Council have at the moment.

They have a fair few old Victorian buildings that various different parts of the council use. Now these old buildings, in the main, fail all the new environmental requirements set out for most councils. So the council is looking to either sell off or rent out some of these old buildings to private companies.

Council staff will have to move to more modern facilities which will obviously incur a cost. At the same time the old buildings are nearly all listed which hinders proposed new use.

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3 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

£9.5 billion went out of the NHS budget on private companies last year! Try getting an NHS dentist!

Thanks for answering my question. Said it before I'll say it again - you'd make a great politician. When you don't actually have an answer you just say something else half related.

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8 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

Fact is labour are fiscally way more astute than the Tories, they have borrowed less and paid back more, this government has borrowed more than every labour government ever!

You need to do some homework.

Lies damned lies and statistics. Are you taking into account inflation or the fact that The Tories have been in power more than Labour? For the record I’m not a natural Tory or Labour voter. Just sceptical that the State spends our money better than we do. All the Parties lie to get power. Not enough intelligent minds running the country. 

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2 hours ago, Richmond96 said:

Lies damned lies and statistics. Are you taking into account inflation or the fact that The Tories have been in power more than Labour? For the record I’m not a natural Tory or Labour voter. Just sceptical that the State spends our money better than we do. All the Parties lie to get power. Not enough intelligent minds running the country. 

No mate, THIS government since 2010 has borrowed more than every labour Gov, ever! And that includes the money bailing out the banks during the crash of 08' they really are a shambles, anyone that thinks Tories are the way forward really needs to shake their heads, I cant beleive anyone would vote for a party that has decimated this countries infrastructure, is pushing for a ruinous Brexit deal, and has an absolute moron as a leader, and think that's a good choice, unbelievable. 

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42 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

No mate, THIS government since 2010 has borrowed more than every labour Gov, ever! And that includes the money bailing out the banks during the crash of 08' they really are a shambles, anyone that thinks Tories are the way forward really needs to shake their heads, I cant beleive anyone would vote for a party that has decimated this countries infrastructure, is pushing for a ruinous Brexit deal, and has an absolute moron as a leader, and think that's a good choice, unbelievable. 

Its an awful choice.

However Corbyn would be worse.

There are no winners here. The Tory’s will screw us all over, Corbyn will destroy us. Its the lesser of two evils. 

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1 hour ago, Flea said:

Its an awful choice.

However Corbyn would be worse.

There are no winners here. The Tory’s will screw us all over, Corbyn will destroy us. Its the lesser of two evils. 

How on earth will the common sence social democracy of the labour party destroy us? Christ man what do you think these Tory bastards have done!

 

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2 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

No mate, THIS government since 2010 has borrowed more than every labour Gov, ever! And that includes the money bailing out the banks during the crash of 08' they really are a shambles, anyone that thinks Tories are the way forward really needs to shake their heads, I cant beleive anyone would vote for a party that has decimated this countries infrastructure, is pushing for a ruinous Brexit deal, and has an absolute moron as a leader, and think that's a good choice, unbelievable. 

I just checked this out and I think you’re mistaken. Either way, someone has to pay eventually though (Probably our children) and the world is a small place now. If Corbin thinks he can tax the corporations and the rich without any consequences he’s mistaken. They’ll both simply move (it’s happened before) and the tax revenue will fall so services will suffer. It’s a fine balance. 

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1 minute ago, Richmond96 said:

I just checked this out and I think you’re mistaken. Either way, someone has to pay eventually though (Probably our children) and the world is a small place now. If Corbin thinks he can tax the corporations and the rich without any consequences he’s mistaken. They’ll both simply move (it’s happened before) and the tax revenue will fall so services will suffer. It’s a fine balance. 

Nope, in cash terms every labour Gov borrowed 500bn in total, since 2010 this Gov borrowed 640bn.

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2 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

How on earth will the common sence social democracy of the labour party destroy us? Christ man what do you think these Tory bastards have done!

 

They are as bad as each other. The majority of people now realise that. The  Brexit saga  has done one thing if you agree with it or not, it has exposed the establishment for what they really are. We need change  alright but nothing any party can bring. The whole system  needs change, complete revamp.

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5 minutes ago, Shaytrev said:

They are as bad as each other. The majority of people now realise that. The  Brexit saga  has done one thing if you agree with it or not, it has exposed the establishment for what they really are.

This is the thing - and something that those that have deep rooted party links fail to see. Some are so blinkered by their support of the party that they don't look at things in the bigger picture.

I would much rather have a Labour government than a Tory one. However, a Corbyn led government would be worse than anything the Tory's could throw at us. That is not me supporting or backing the Conservatives in any way shape or form, as they are simply atrocious. 

This election has to sadly be a Conservative victory, as there is only two possible parties that can get into power - them and a Corbyn led Labour. The hope is that Labour take such a battering that it forces Corbyn to go, they replace him with someone even half decent, then they can "go again" in the next election. Short term pain for long time gain.

 

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2 minutes ago, Flea said:

This is the thing - and something that those that have deep rooted party links fail to see. Some are so blinkered by their support of the party that they don't look at things in the bigger picture.

I would much rather have a Labour government than a Tory one. However, a Corbyn led government would be worse than anything the Tory's could throw at us. That is not me supporting or backing the Conservatives in any way shape or form, as they are simply atrocious. 

This election has to sadly be a Conservative victory, as there is only two possible parties that can get into power - them and a Corbyn led Labour. The hope is that Labour take such a battering that it forces Corbyn to go, they replace him with someone even half decent, then they can "go again" in the next election. Short term pain for long time gain.

 

I believe both Tory and Labour need to be confined to History.

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2 minutes ago, Flea said:

This is the thing - and something that those that have deep rooted party links fail to see. Some are so blinkered by their support of the party that they don't look at things in the bigger picture.

I would much rather have a Labour government than a Tory one. However, a Corbyn led government would be worse than anything the Tory's could throw at us. That is not me supporting or backing the Conservatives in any way shape or form, as they are simply atrocious. 

This election has to sadly be a Conservative victory, as there is only two possible parties that can get into power - them and a Corbyn led Labour. The hope is that Labour take such a battering that it forces Corbyn to go, they replace him with someone even half decent, then they can "go again" in the next election. Short term pain for long time gain.

 

Ignore both leaders of the main parties. For example, what would and should change in the manifesto with a 'better leader'? What different policies should there be? And why? Genuine questions as I wonder what you mean when you say you would rather have a Labour government but it would be worse than the Tories with Corbyn at the helm?

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3 minutes ago, Flea said:

This is the thing - and something that those that have deep rooted party links fail to see. Some are so blinkered by their support of the party that they don't look at things in the bigger picture.

I would much rather have a Labour government than a Tory one. However, a Corbyn led government would be worse than anything the Tory's could throw at us. That is not me supporting or backing the Conservatives in any way shape or form, as they are simply atrocious. 

This election has to sadly be a Conservative victory, as there is only two possible parties that can get into power - them and a Corbyn led Labour. The hope is that Labour take such a battering that it forces Corbyn to go, they replace him with someone even half decent, then they can "go again" in the next election. Short term pain for long time gain.

 

Please explain why you think labours policies will be a disaster!

 

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The Royal Mint is going to be working overtime printing a thousand billion (is that a zillion ?) for our next government (Tory or Labour) to spend on housing and essential services . I'd sort it for half the price

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The last Labour Government in 2010 left a note saying "I’m Afraid There Is No Money”! Labour’s policies left Britain Bankrupt which resulted in 10 years of Austerity. Don’t let them do it again!

75199847_1462443363906006_7963238665251979264_o.jpg

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2 hours ago, 154 Hopper Avenue said:

Ignore both leaders of the main parties. For example, what would and should change in the manifesto with a 'better leader'? What different policies should there be? And why? Genuine questions as I wonder what you mean when you say you would rather have a Labour government but it would be worse than the Tories with Corbyn at the helm?

I align myself more with Labour's ideals and proposals, they are in theory the most sound and reasonable, however the figures currently being banded about and the ways of getting things to work simply don't stack up for me. The other problem is the behaviour and views of Corbyn and his ilk are driving away the proper core Labour support. 

I look at peoples past records, and Corbyn's is one of oppose and delay, rather than of cracking on with something. Even now, when asked several times on if he would back or oppose Brexit if there was a second referendum he would not give an answer. Instead he said he would give a second referendum (Something I believe we should NOT be having) to "give the people a chance to decide". The people have already had that choice... He wont however say if he would in this referendum support the leave or remain bids. This sums him up. 

The NHS is being used as a political tool at the moment. Its being used to point score, and the party/person doing that is Corbyn. When asked the direct question, Boris clearly stated that the NHS would not be sold. Now, if he is being truthful or not that is another issue, however he has come out and quite clearly said it is NOT for sale. On three occasions since then Corbyn has repeated the claim that the NHS WILL be sold off. 

It comes down to trust too in a person. Corbyn is not a man we can trust in my opinion. A man that would sit with Hamaz and Hezbolla, however refused to meet May to talk about her Brexit deal. Regardless of how **** or not that deal was, he flat out refused to talk to her about it. When it was clear to a blind man who was responsible for the Sailsbury poisoning who was the only person to not condemn Russia? 

Or how about the amount of times over the years he has demanded snap elections, cried that May/Johnson should resign, whilst at the same time ignored all the calls for him to do the same. He has purged from Labour all those that dare stand up against his far left stance, and what has crept in is an aggressive almost eco-warrior style bullying and intimidation style campaigning and fake news bullshit blitz. There are plenty of long term Labour candidates that have either been removed from the party or have left due to his handling. His issues such as anti-semitism (Here comes our resident eco-warrior to now spread some more false accusations against me - proving my point about the intimidation style attack I mean) can not be ignored, however instead of tackling the subject he again gets those around him to smoke and mirror attack people. The extremists are now running the party. 

Whilst the current Labour manifesto has said they have no plans to scrap Trident, the leaders views are well known on Trident and what he wants to happen. Again in theory, having no nuclear weapons would be a better world, however by scrapping or weakening our defence, we make ourselves a target unless everyone else agrees to do the same. The idea is nice, however it is simply not practical. 

How about some of the laughable soundbites promises then?

Free broadband for all - Whilst we have a homeless crisis and families using food banks more than library's the headline grabber here is free broadband. How is this logically going to work? It would have to be government run, would cost an absolute fortune to get up to speed and then due to their being no competition we will see that standards will slip. After all, why give the best for a customer if you are their only port of call?

Four day working week - There are low paid families that have two full time wages that are struggling to put food on the table. In what world will working less help these people if they are taking less money home? Its a total farce of a call with no logic or planning going into it. What the issue is is that the minimum wage is too low to the cost of living and inflation and that needs to be addressed, not cutting the hours down. No one is wanting to work 40/50+ hours a week at the moment now however many don't have any choice. Cutting hours down will hurt more people than it will help. 

A second referendum on Brexit, followed by a second referendum on Scottish Independence (albeit not for the first year of a Labour government) - We need to snap out of this "poor loser refusing to accept the result" mentality that has crept in. In the past after votes and elections as a nation we cracked on and got on with the collective will of the people. Now its become fair game to disrupt the result, to throw spanners in the work and demand second goes. One thing for certain is if Labour got in they would immediately stop asking for second votes.

 

 

Now take Corbyn out of all of this, put in a leader that is not so left wing and divisive, get rid of those extremist idiots that go full out to damage peoples reputations, simply for having the courage to say this man is a nasty piece of work, and have the party return to the people, then its a shoe in to win an election, because, lets face it, the Conservatives are not a proper viable option. 

The problem isn't Labour or its policy's per say  (although some of them atm are so laughable its sad), however its the direction it has been heading in in the last few years due to those at the top and their militant followers that refuse to hear anything bad about the party. 

To put it in perspective, whilst currently not voting for Labour whilst that fool is in charge, I do overall view myself as a Labour supporter. I dislike the Tory's and have been very vocal on that. Yet the only people attacking my political views seem to be other Labour supporters atm - and it can not be hidden from anyone how vile one person on here was in his attempts to destroy my reputation with fake news, just because I said I would not vote for Corbyn.

We can't have a serious debate or conversation on this, as the current leadership of Labour and its militant followers don't allow it. For as vile as I view many of the other parties, like the far right ones for example, they don't seem to be as hell bent on stopping free speech and people speaking out than this current Labour lot. 

 

Edited by Flea

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4 minutes ago, Flea said:

I align myself more with Labour's ideals and proposals, they are in theory the most sound and reasonable, however the figures currently being banded about and the ways of getting things to work simply don't stack up for me. The other problem is the behaviour and views of Corbyn and his ilk are driving away the proper core Labour support. 

I look at peoples pasts records, and Corbyn's is one of oppose and delay, rather than of cracking on with something. Even now, when asked several times on if he would back or oppose Brexit if there was a second referendum he would not give an answer. Instead he said he would give a second referendum (Something I believe we should NOT be having) to "give the people a chance to decide". The people have already had that choice... He wont however say if he would in this referendum support the leave or remain bids. This sums him up. 

The NHS is being used as a political tool at the moment. Its being used to point score, and the party/person doing that is Corbyn. When asked the direct question, Boris clearly stated that the NHS would not be sold. Now, if he is being truthful or not that is another issue, however he has come out and quite clearly said it is NOT for sale. On three occasions since then Corbyn has repeated the claim that the NHS WILL be sold off. 

It comes down to trust too in a person. Corbyn is not a man we can trust in my opinion. A man that would sit with Hamaz and Hezbolla, however refused to meet May to talk about her Brexit deal. Regardless of how **** or not that deal was, he flat out refused to talk to her about it. When it was clear to a blind man who was responsible for the Sailsbury poisoning who was the only person to not condemn Russia? 

Or how about the amount of times over the years he has demanded snap elections, cried that May/Johnson should resign, whilst at the same time ignored all the calls for him to do the same. He has purged from Labour all those that dare stand up against his far left stance, and what has crept in is an aggressive almost eco-warrior style bullying and intimidation style campaigning and fake news bullshit blitz. There are plenty of long term Labour candidates that have either been removed from the party or have left due to his handling. His issues such as anti-semitism (Here comes our resident eco-warrior to now spread some more false accusations against me - proving my point about the intimidation style attack I mean) can not be ignored, however instead of tackling the subject he again gets those around him to smoke and mirror attack people. The extremists are now running the party. 

Whilst the current Labour manifesto has said they have no plans to scrap Trident, the leaders views are well known on Trident and what he wants to happen. Again in theory, having no nuclear weapons would be a better world, however by scrapping or weakening our defence, we make ourselves a target unless everyone else agrees to do the same. The idea is nice, however it is simply not practical. 

How about some of the laughable soundbites promises then?

Free broadband for all - Whilst we have a homeless crisis and families using food banks more than library's the headline grabber here is free broadband. How is this logically going to work? It would have to be government run, would cost an absolute fortune to get up to speed and then due to their being no competition we will see that standards will slip. After all, why give the best for a customer if you are their only port of call?

Four day working week - There are low paid families that have two full time wages that are struggling to put food on the table. In what world will working less help these people if they are taking less money home? Its a total farce of a call with no logic or planning going into it. What the issue is is that the minimum wage is too low to the cost of living and inflation and that needs to be addressed, not cutting the hours down. No one is wanting to work 40/50+ hours a week at the moment now however many don't have any choice. Cutting hours down will hurt more people than it will help. 

A second referendum on Brexit, followed by a second referendum on Scottish Independence (albeit not for the first year of a Labour government) - We need to snap out of this "poor loser refusing to accept the result" mentality that has crept in. In the past after votes and elections as a nation we cracked on and got on with the collective will of the people. Now its become fair game to disrupt the result, to throw spanners in the work and demand second goes. One thing for certain is if Labour got in they would immediately stop asking for second votes.

 

 

Now take Corbyn out of all of this, put in a leader that is not so left wing and divisive, get rid of those extremist idiots that go full out to damage peoples reputations, simply for having the courage to say this man is a nasty piece of work, and have the party return to the people, then its a shoe in to win an election, because, lets face it, the Conservatives are not a proper viable option. 

The problem isn't Labour or its policy's per say  (although some of them atm are so laughable its sad), however its the direction it has been heading in in the last few years due to those at the top and their militant followers that refuse to hear anything bad about the party. 

To put it in perspective, whilst currently not voting for Labour whilst that fool is in charge, I do overall view myself as a Labour supporter. I dislike the Tory's and have been very vocal on that. Yet the only people attacking my political views seem to be other Labour supporters atm - and it can not be hidden from anyone how vile one person on here was in his attempts to destroy my reputation with fake news, just because I said I would not vote for Corbyn.

We can't have a serious debate or conversation on this, as the current leadership of Labour and its militant followers don't allow it. For as vile as I view many of the other parties, like the far right ones for example, they don't seem to be as hell bent on stopping free speech and people speaking out than this current Labour lot. 

 

Speaking to a friend of a friend who works in the broadband field ie, he's an engineer, says they're alr Ady struggling to keep up with demand. He thinks the overall cost of giving everyone free broadband would easily exceed five times the amount that's beenqoited and he and all his colleagues laughed their heads off when they heard about and then asked what planet is he on.

Have a look at each parties manifesto and then play a  game to see how many will they not deliver on, and which ones will they and won't implement.

I wonder if the bookies take bets on such matters?

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The manifesto's aren't worth the paper they are wrote on.

Anyone remember all the BS the Lib Dems offered when they targeted students about 6 years ago, then screwed every one of their voters over for a tiny sniff of power.

No party can be trusted - the danger is listening to those that are so hell bent on supporting one party that they won't however accept any criticism of it. A lot like the religious - happy to say why everyone elses isn't right, however if you were to knock theirs, then all hell breaks loose. 

 

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1 hour ago, Flea said:

The manifesto's aren't worth the paper they are wrote on.

Anyone remember all the BS the Lib Dems offered when they targeted students about 6 years ago, then screwed every one of their voters over for a tiny sniff of power.

No party can be trusted - the danger is listening to those that are so hell bent on supporting one party that they won't however accept any criticism of it. A lot like the religious - happy to say why everyone elses isn't right, however if you were to knock theirs, then all hell breaks loose. 

 

Chrisbo definitely falls into this category. 

If only Jeremy knew how much he's supported him and how many arguements he's fought on his behalf.

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4 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

Please explain why you think labours policies will be a disaster!

 

It is expected this year the top 5 percent of the UK population will pay 50 percent of the income tax take. If rates go above a certain level (nobody knows where this is but it’s certainly below 60 percent) and there is plenty of evidence people are already leaving (the biggest queue in London is at the Portuguese Embassy) the tax taken will crash. Decreased revenues equals decreased services sooner rather than later. Who will lend us all the money Labour wants to spend? We owe a fortune already. Someone at some stage has to stop kicking the can down the road. I wish a David Milliband would return to take over. 

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6 hours ago, Shaytrev said:

 

The last Labour Government in 2010 left a note saying "I’m Afraid There Is No Money”! Labour’s policies left Britain Bankrupt which resulted in 10 years of Austerity. Don’t let them do it again!

75199847_1462443363906006_7963238665251979264_o.jpg

The county has been bankrupt since WW2. 

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