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born to moan

Mad money, and politics and history and international law, and climate change, and Brexit, and Chinese imports, and Diane Abbott, and Donald Trump, and the General Election, and the NHS.

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4 hours ago, born to moan said:

Erik if you eat a lot of spinach why don't you change your forum tag name to Popeye. Chrisbo Bluto might stop trying to bully you then.

There's already a Popeye on the forum so the name is taken.

Nice try.

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Had the first visit from a political party campaigning group today..... It went like this....

I was at the top of my driveway when I was approached by one of the canvassers...

ME - "Don`t bother mate, you`re wasting your time"

"Can I just...."

"NO!"

Thinking all was done I carried on with what I was doing (it involved a hosepipe) when one his buddies came down the drive.... When he asked me who I would be voting for, he didn`t appreciate me saying "anyone but your lot"

"You don`t know what you`re talking about"

Red rag, bull etc. "If you don`t get off my drive I`ll blast you with this hosepipe", and he laughed. He laughed. FFS.

Anyway, I started counting from 5 and got to 3 when the penny dropped with him.

I`m leaving the hosepipe by the front door for future use.

 

 

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At the risk of being called a clown, an utter clown etc, etc, etc on here, I must say Boris wasn't brilliant but won last nights debate hands down. But Comrade Corbyn isn't really strong opposition is he. The only impressive canvassing done last night came from Farage, who once again talked nothing but common sense, on the programme later on.

Edited by born to moan

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Brilliant? For lying about his deal's impact on Northern Ireland? Lying about what his own government says about opening up the NHS to US companies? Failing to answer arguably the most important question of all about integrity? Repeating his lie about 40 hospitals and then having to concede it's 6 that they're 'fixing up'? The list goes on.
More dynamic on TV? Of course. I suppose it depends what you want from a PM. But let's remember up to shortly before the referendum and, indeed, beyond it, he was taking positions in Brexit he now ridicules others for stating.

As for Farage, I think he's a charlatan but that's just my view. 

I should add that disagreeing with me or thinking he's the man for the job doesn't make you a clown, just means we have different opinions. Too much of that stuff bandied about which is part of the problem. 

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1 hour ago, born to moan said:

At the risk of being called a clown, an utter clown etc, etc, etc on here, I must say Boris wasn't brilliant but won last nights debate hands down. But Comrade Corbyn isn't really strong opposition is he. The only impressive canvassing done last night came from Farage, who once again talked nothing but common sense, on the programme later on.

Chortle,chortle!

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59 minutes ago, 154 Hopper Avenue said:

Brilliant? For lying about his deal's impact on Northern Ireland? Lying about what his own government says about opening up the NHS to US companies? Failing to answer arguably the most important question of all about integrity? Repeating his lie about 40 hospitals and then having to concede it's 6 that they're 'fixing up'? The list goes on.
More dynamic on TV? Of course. I suppose it depends what you want from a PM. But let's remember up to shortly before the referendum and, indeed, beyond it, he was taking positions in Brexit he now ridicules others for stating.

As for Farage, I think he's a charlatan but that's just my view. 

I should add that disagreeing with me or thinking he's the man for the job doesn't make you a clown, just means we have different opinions. Too much of that stuff bandied about which is part of the problem. 

Agree with everything except about Farage. I'm on the opposite side of the Brexit debate to him but I feel he's one of the few principled politicians out there. He castigated BoJo and the Leave campaign for the red bus lies, and for the most part he's stuck to his guns that Brexit - for him - is mainly about sovereignty and not necessarily immigration or finances, etc. which are side-issues he uses to gain traction. He wants Parliament to have the final say not the ECJ, which is a position I can respect even if I don't agree with it. He did go along with the nonsense about Turkey being able to join and the EU army, though he is careful to say that it can't happen unless the rules change or the UK gives in - which, in fairness, is certainly possible after all.

I think BoJo has already been a disaster as PM and the thought of him having 5 years horrifies me. But on balance he has to be the better choice over Corbyn. I genuinely think the country's doomed either way, the economy will stutter along like usual and people will keep swallowing the lies that change and improvement is just around the corner.

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I thought Boris performed slightly better, I wouldn't say either of them won hands down. I believe Boris was stronger on Brexit, the economy and his infrastructure plans, whilst JC was good with his NHS prop.

The problem with this election is that sadly it's a single issue contest and JC doesn't know where he or his party stand on it.

One thing I always find strange is that why is there such a big issue with private companies working in / with/ for the NHS.? 

If we all pay for it and as long as the treatment is free at the point of use shouldn't we be advocating the best possible solution and if that's provided in house, great, but if it's from an external source is that really a problem? 

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21 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Agree with everything except about Farage. I'm on the opposite side of the Brexit debate to him but I feel he's one of the few principled politicians out there. He castigated BoJo and the Leave campaign for the red bus lies, and for the most part he's stuck to his guns that Brexit - for him - is mainly about sovereignty and not necessarily immigration or finances, etc. which are side-issues he uses to gain traction. He wants Parliament to have the final say not the ECJ, which is a position I can respect even if I don't agree with it. He did go along with the nonsense about Turkey being able to join and the EU army, though he is careful to say that it can't happen unless the rules change or the UK gives in - which, in fairness, is certainly possible after all.

I think BoJo has already been a disaster as PM and the thought of him having 5 years horrifies me. But on balance he has to be the better choice over Corbyn. I genuinely think the country's doomed either way, the economy will stutter along like usual and people will keep swallowing the lies that change and improvement is just around the corner.

My ire at Farage is based on his notion that he's somehow outside of the 'establishment' and/or the 'political class'. He couldn't be more deeply immersed in them if he tried. And I don't think he left the Tory he was behind. He sees leaving the EU as an opportunity to pursue economic and social policies that would make many in his old, old party blush....

As for Johnson being better on balance, he's a walking disaster who regards attention to detail as a vice. It's about him and his ego, he will literally say anything, often the first thing that comes into his head. His track record in positions of responsibility is woeful. I just don't get what people see in the man. 

Edited by 154 Hopper Avenue
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11 minutes ago, Norm said:

I thought Boris performed slightly better, I wouldn't say either of them won hands down. I believe Boris was stronger on Brexit, the economy and his infrastructure plans, whilst JC was good with his NHS prop.

The problem with this election is that sadly it's a single issue contest and JC doesn't know where he or his party stand on it.

One thing I always find strange is that why is there such a big issue with private companies working in / with/ for the NHS.? 

If we all pay for it and as long as the treatment is free at the point of use shouldn't we be advocating the best possible solution and if that's provided in house, great, but if it's from an external source is that really a problem? 

I think the issue is really should private companies be profiting from our national health service! It's the same with the public ownership issue, surely it's better to run infrastructure to the benefit of the nation rather than shareholders, and as is the case in several utility companies and the railways foreign governments! 

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Neither came out of the debate looking good, however I'd slightly put Boris ahead on the night, simply because Corbyn repeatably failed to answer the straight question of "How would you CAMPAIGN on a second referendum on Brexit?" To then say he wanted the people to decide and to put it to the vote, with no hint of irony on the fact that is WHAT HAPPENED summed him up. Yet again, he fails to take a side and nail his colours to the mast. 

This morning however you then get a stark reminder of why you can not trust the Conservative's with their editing of a "Fact Checking" Twitter account. I was also less than impressed with Boris's massaging of figures re jobs and money in the NHS and new hospitals. 

Farage is an utter bell end however annoyingly spoke the most sense out of the lot of them and I think out of all the speakers last night is probably the one that actually connected with the man on the street more than anyone else. With Sturgeon, I hate that woman and don't care for the SNP, however if I was Scottish I could see exactly why the people up there would vote for her over Labour, as they are doing everything Labour promised they would do but don't.

The person with the worst night, well its a toss up between Julie Etchingham, who truly was an horrific host, and Jo Swinson, who is simply refusing to accept the Brexit vote. 

I'd rank performances of the interviewed as follows -

Nigel Farage

Nicola Sturgeon

Boris Johnson

Sian Berry / Jeremy Corbyn

Jo Swinson

I've seen opinion polls have given Boris a 51/49% victory last night. I think that is about right, which sums up how shambolic the leadership at Labour, and all the other opposition parties are. Johnson simply can not be trusted, is a proven liar and is an idiot, however he is sadly the best option on the table.

My hope from this election is that the Conservatives get in, however only just, so they need another coalition. Labour take an absolute battering in the polls which means that Corbyn then gets toppled and they put in a proper leader. We then get Brexit done (which should happen as per the vote), we put up with a few more years of Tory government, then with a proper respectable leader in charge of Labour they walk into power in a few years time.

Oddly a thrashing for Labour at this election could be the best thing to happen to the party as it will give them a chance to get rid of the idiot in charge and to stamp down on the far left extremists that have destroyed the party. 

 

 

Edited by Flea

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9 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

I think the issue is really should private companies be profiting from our national health service! It's the same with the public ownership issue, surely it's better to run infrastructure to the benefit of the nation rather than shareholders, and as is the case in several utility companies and the railways foreign governments! 

I understand that mate, I suppose the counter argument would be that if we have £1 of tax payers money to provide a service can the public sector provide that service for £1 if they can  fine, if they can't then we need to investigate if it can be sourced elsewhere.

I obviously accept that some things can't be purely dealt with in financial terms, front line patient care, but for those that can  catering, grounds maintenance etc as taxpayers are we not duty bound to expect the trust to spend our money in the most effective way possible? 

Re the railway etc I don't particularly have a massive issue one way or the other  providing the money is spent wisely and we are afforded the best possible service. Certainly there are many more services today than there were under BR and if the companies make a profit then as long as they pay their fair share in corporation tax and continue to invest in the service. Although I think we both know that that aspect could be improved.

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Sadly it’s not The Labour Party. It’s the Marxist Party. Why they don’t get a decent leader is beyond me. Johnson is not to be trusted but Corbin has no credibility re the most important issue of all, the economy. His plans will result in reduced tax revenues and the people’s he’s trying to help will suffer. A ridiculous state of affairs and who wants 2 more referendums? Can’t stand Nicola Sturgeon, but at least you know where she stands and she answers the question. 

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41 minutes ago, Richmond96 said:

Sadly it’s not The Labour Party. It’s the Marxist Party. Why they don’t get a decent leader is beyond me. Johnson is not to be trusted but Corbin has no credibility re the most important issue of all, the economy. His plans will result in reduced tax revenues and the people’s he’s trying to help will suffer. A ridiculous state of affairs and who wants 2 more referendums? Can’t stand Nicola Sturgeon, but at least you know where she stands and she answers the question. 

I dont like Corbyn, but marxist! I dont think so.

The labour parties policies are in line with the majority of European left of centre parties and seem to work pretty well for them.

As far as the economy is concerned I dont see where you are coming from, the last ten years has shown that the Tories certainly cant be trusted with it, and if it means taxes rise to pay for more police, fire service,NHS etc then as far as I'm concerned its money well spent.

Anyway the majority on here wont be any worse of as most tax rises are aimed at £80000 plus earners!

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1 hour ago, chrisbo61 said:

I dont like Corbyn, but marxist! I dont think so.

The labour parties policies are in line with the majority of European left of centre parties and seem to work pretty well for them.

As far as the economy is concerned I dont see where you are coming from, the last ten years has shown that the Tories certainly cant be trusted with it, and if it means taxes rise to pay for more police, fire service,NHS etc then as far as I'm concerned its money well spent.

Anyway the majority on here wont be any worse of as most tax rises are aimed at £80000 plus earners!

They might be worse off when the country's top earners decide to move elsewhere or engage in other more 'efficient' ways of paying their taxes, therefore reducing the overall tax income of the UK. Raising tax rates does not always equal (in fact there is evidence to suggest it rarely does) greater overall tax incomes.

Here is a good and light-hearted explanation: https://www.moore.co.uk/msuk/moore-stephens-south/news/april-2016/the-tax-system-explained-using-a-beer-analogy

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28 minutes ago, greg45 said:

They might be worse off when the country's top earners decide to move elsewhere or engage in other more 'efficient' ways of paying their taxes, therefore reducing the overall tax income of the UK. Raising tax rates does not always equal (in fact there is evidence to suggest it rarely does) greater overall tax incomes.

Here is a good and light-hearted explanation: https://www.moore.co.uk/msuk/moore-stephens-south/news/april-2016/the-tax-system-explained-using-a-beer-analogy

Ha ha, funny but in this countries case we already have some of the lowest tax rates in Europe, plus add in tax avoidance at the highest level and the picture looks very different!

It's one of the riches favourite sayings, tax us too much and we will leave, never happens, never will.

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10 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

Ha ha, funny but in this countries case we already have some of the lowest tax rates in Europe, plus add in tax avoidance at the highest level and the picture looks very different!

It's one of the riches favourite sayings, tax us too much and we will leave, never happens, never will.

It happened in the 1970's Chris, they even had a terminology for it, " the brain drain" when many intelligent talented people upped sticks.

For something closer to our times look at France under Francois Hollande. I know lots of French bankers and traders took advantage of freedom of movement and our more generous tax regimes and moved to work in the city.

So it does happen.

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42 minutes ago, Norm said:

It happened in the 1970's Chris, they even had a terminology for it, " the brain drain" when many intelligent talented people upped sticks.

For something closer to our times look at France under Francois Hollande. I know lots of French bankers and traders took advantage of freedom of movement and our more generous tax regimes and moved to work in the city.

So it does happen.

Sure it happens, but like I said this country has some of the lowest taxes in Europe, that's probably why as you say the French bankers come here!

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1 hour ago, chrisbo61 said:

Sure it happens, but like I said this country has some of the lowest taxes in Europe, that's probably why as you say the French bankers come here!

I was waiting for one of our regular contributors to jump on the f.o.m comment but there's time yet :shh:

Edited by Norm
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