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Mad money, and politics and history and international law, and climate change, and Brexit, and Chinese imports, and Diane Abbott, and Donald Trump, and the General Election, and the NHS.

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1 hour ago, Nick said:

There will always be some calling for an insurance based system 

but that does mean they will get it 

sensible politicians know it’s a vote loser 

What worries me is the amount of tory mps that either work for or have shares in private medical companies!

I think it's a bit naive to think that they wont be pushing for an insurance based system in the future. 

These people hate the nhs, it's pure socialism at work, and they way they are going to secure it is simply by running down the existing system, as is now happening, and then when everyone is calling for a better system, bingo! An insurance based system is implemented.

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2 minutes ago, Richmond96 said:

What often gets ignored is the evolution of the NHS. To start off with its was designed to provided a basic level of care. Now people get cosmetic surgery (depending on their post code). If we didn’t waste money on boob jobs etc perhaps waiting times for essential treatments might fall meaningfully. Are our politicians honest enough to have an honest debate about such matters? Sadly no. 

With respect, I really dont think cosmetic surgery accounts for much on the grand scheme of things! I think one of the main drains on the budget is huge salaries for management and consultants!

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54 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

What worries me is the amount of tory mps that either work for or have shares in private medical companies!

I think it's a bit naive to think that they wont be pushing for an insurance based system in the future. 

These people hate the nhs, it's pure socialism at work, and they way they are going to secure it is simply by running down the existing system, as is now happening, and then when everyone is calling for a better system, bingo! An insurance based system is implemented.

This is a question of belief .. you think it will happen 

I think it won’t 

labour for as long has I can remember said the tories what you sell off the NHS and the tories say no they don’t 

30 years later they are both still saying the same .. the NHS is still here ... I am pleased to say 

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Well I'm glad you are all so optimistic! Personally I wouldn't put anything past these Tories and their past record backs me up!

Theres an awful lot of people had the wool pulled over their eyes in this election, I just hope it all works out for them ,but I know it wont.

Edited by chrisbo61

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Everyone’s put their views in, and as everyone on here, I assume, is just an individual voter I don’t want to show you any animosity. Whether you hated my side, sympathsied in part with my side, I genuinely believe our proposals would have helped every one of you posting on here, so hear me out as someone who very enthusiastically backed and got involved in the Labour campaign.

There are thousands of different reasons why people voted the way they did up and down the country. Two things screwed us: the Brexit policy, and public mistrust of Corbyn. Though we were accused of sitting on the fence on Brexit there was good reason for this, and one that has sadly become crystal clear as the Tories have swept up a host of Leave-voting Labour seats. A good 50% of the British people wanted Brexit, and on top of that the Tory supporters who didn’t want Brexit were far more loyal to the Tories than Remainers ever would be to Labour. In the EU Elections, despite the Brexit Party clearly winning, the narrative for those concerned with the Labour party was dominated by having to appeal to Lib Dem and Green voters, and we shat ourselves a little under that pressure and went for the second referendum. Did that stop the attacks from Liberal pundits who supposedly just wanted a “People’s Vote”? Did it heck. They’re now trying to put their boot in as if this policy of theirs, which we adopted, was not to blame, when any look at the swing seats show that voters went from Labour to the Tories and the Brexit Party. Obviously if we pledged to respect the referendum as we did in 2017 then there’d have been a chance we would have had to inherit this incredibly costly policy and justify that to a party with a significant amount of hardcore Remainers. Now the Tories have to own it though, and whatever gains in sovereignty we make, mark my words, our economy will pay a very heavy price for it.

The second part obviously was the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn. I am an unashamed fan of his, his track record is brilliant as a voice for those who need him, and he’s a man who sticks to his principles. He took so much sh*t yet somehow remained calm and never resorted to personal attacks. Still, after 4 years it was impossible to overcome the warped view people took of him. Word of warning though to those of you saying a more centrist Labour leader would have won the election: whoever is the next leader, even if it’s the one you’d put your house on winning whether centrist or right-wing Labour, they will be made to appear as bad if not worse than Corbyn and anything and everything they do wrong will be amplified to full volume. Meanwhile anything and everything Johnson and the Tories do wrong will only be acknowledged so long as it can be equivocated with something someone in the Labour party has done, no matter how slight and how irrelevant these two things are. Of course I supported him even as I felt that public perception of him was irrevocable. Why would I want to let those b*stards win and be proven right? 

Bad things are gonna happen in this Tory government. We’re already in a mental health crisis. Our public institutions are being intentionally starved of funding and their vitally skilled workers are overstretched to the point where privatisation appears the only, inevitable solution. The climate crisis will only drive the poorest people in the world away from their homes, as will the British aircraft and bombs being dropped on places like Yemen, and yet these people fleeing these crimes, if they think of coming to Britain, will be treated like criminals and locked up in prisons if they are detected. The mental health crisis is a result of the total environment we're in and our psychology as we live in it. It is ruining our lives, and this ‘It’s okay to talk’ stuff will only put a plaster on it if it works at all. People don’t have time or money to care for each other and feel cared for in return, and when in crisis they have nowhere to retreat, nowhere to escape the punishing, humiliating everyday routine that got them to this point. People feel like useless, hopeless, worthless instruments, and when they try to kill themselves they’re chucked into facilities that treat them like criminals. Keep an eye out on your friends and loved ones and help them out where you can, cos government policy sure isn’t going to make it happen now.
Be safe. I wish I could dismiss this with a 'life goes on' kind of attitude, but for too many people it really will not.

Anyway, thanks to all who've discussed this stuff civilly on here, I'm glad there was a place where we could discuss this, even if some of you have just been downright disgraceful all the way through. ;)   
 
 

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2 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

With respect, I really dont think cosmetic surgery accounts for much on the grand scheme of things! I think one of the main drains on the budget is huge salaries for management and consultants!

Fair point. The main drain on resources probably is money wasted on management & consultants. I was trying to broaden the discussion to “what do we want from the NHS going forward?”

Should obese people be told to lose weight before getting a knee replacement? Should people who make appointments but fail to show up be charged a cancellation fee?

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3 minutes ago, Richmond96 said:

Fair point. The main drain on resources probably is money wasted on management & consultants. I was trying to broaden the discussion to “what do we want from the NHS going forward?”

Should obese people be told to lose weight before getting a knee replacement? Should people who make appointments but fail to show up be charged a cancellation fee?

As far as I know the weight thing already happens, and I agree, an admin fee should be charged for missing appointments. 

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46 minutes ago, chrisbo61 said:

As far as I know the weight thing already happens, and I agree, an admin fee should be charged for missing appointments. 

I'm not obese, but I'd received a phone call from the hospital and even now I don't know what it's about. But luckily I went through my appointments with a receptionist and found that an appointment on the 30th is in fact a clerical error. So if I hadn't have rung yesterday I would have trailed on two buses to hospital for no reason. The hospital haven't let me know it was an error, obviously.

Works both ways.

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20 hours ago, Nick said:

What that based on the population 8% or that based on their share of government spending 10% 

 

You've got that exactly right, mate. The SNP should let the whole UK vote on their leaving. I think they'd win easily.

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1 hour ago, kit said:

You've got that exactly right, mate. The SNP should let the whole UK vote on their leaving. I think they'd win easily.

Maybe England should hold a referendum, do we want to remain in the UK & continue subsidising the various Celts who loathe us or go it alone.

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8 minutes ago, Roy Race said:

Maybe England should hold a referendum, do we want to remain in the UK & continue subsidising the various Celts who loathe us or go it alone.

Vote Fandabidozi or Fandabinozi. 

067C6437-7A05-442B-B028-95CF7D3A599B.jpeg

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(Due to wanting to quote a fair bit, I have bolded the parts rather than multi-quote. As the reply to some of this has been done via word pad some formatting or font size may change through the post)

 

I don’t want to show you any animosity.

Lets see then @olitheshayman, you say you show no animosity, will you be open and frank with me and discuss your post, or will you ignore me like last week?
 
 
Whether you hated my side, sympathsied in part with my side, I genuinely believe our proposals would have helped every one of you posting on here, so hear me out as someone who very enthusiastically backed and got involved in the Labour campaign.
 
Do you think people were against Labour policies, or do you think people were against the people behind them?
If you look at each Labour policy they all have good intention and merit. It was a ridiculously ambitious manifesto to launch and in truth the figures simply didn’t add up. However, it was the only manifesto that looked to protect those that needed help the most, was the only manifesto that looked after “the man in the street” and was the only manifesto to give a voice to those that normally are overlooked. There were tweaks needed, however overall it was a manifesto that was a lot easier to swallow and more appeasing to the public than what any of the other parties put together (Exception was the weak stance on Brexit, it should have been nailed to the tree one way or another)
 
I find it hard to believe 13M people rejected Labour due to policy. I think deep down you must be able to note and acknowledge that it was more to what was being offered, it came down to trust in the people offering it and what people thought of them.
 
Lets be clear here, we KNOW the Tory’s are pricks. We know Boris is a liar, a cheat and a racist (and thats the nicest thing we can say about him). We know the Tory’s would rather “look after their own” than help those that need it. However even with all of this known, and with a far more palatable manifesto on offer, Labour took the worst beating in the polls since 1935. At some point you/we/they need to stand up and say, what is the reason for this, why is it that people would rather vote for a party that has a history of screwing everyone over over a Corbyn Labour party?

There are thousands of different reasons why people voted the way they did up and down the country. Two things screwed us: the Brexit policy, and public mistrust of Corbyn.
 

Do you honestly think those were the only two things?

How about the personal lies and attacks that people like your brother used on fellow Labour voters like myself? 

I was very clear that I have always voted for Labour prior to Corbyn, yet he decided to edit and shop eight year old posts and portray me as a racist for private non PC jokes. Do you think this sort of stunt is something that makes floating voters move towards or away from Labour? Holding onto 8 yr old posts, never speaking to me about it, even though he has shared car trips to the likes of Sailsbury with me and has spoke with me at least 50 times in person in those years.

Or going away from myself, how about the amount of abuse that was, and still is, being thrown out by Corbyn's supporters now saying everyone who voted the Tory's are murderers, or racist or the likes? 

I voted Greens this time. A total waste of a vote, but a vote for them simply because I couldn't put a X in Labour as it went towards Corbyn, I simply could never vote Tory and the other parties were either racist or simply cuckoo. What I would say, in looking at all the other candidates and their supporters however was that there was very little (yes there was some) hatred being spewed towards the average "man in the street" telling them how they must vote. 

In the run up to the election I “abused” or mocked the policies of Labour, Lib Dems, Conservatives, the Brexit Party and the SNP. Only the Labour and SNP supporters responded with aggressive insults back at me (And the SNP stuff was general anti-English stuff). This is even though I had made it clear that I was an ex Labour voter who would be voting for them after Corbyn leaves. 

Now if ex Labour voters are being treated so badly by the party they most identify with, why on earth would a floating voter want to vote for them - or even more, a voter who aligns themselves with one of the other parties? Its a serious question I’d love to know the answer to, as reading Twitter / FB and media comments now all I am seeing is sheer anger and abuse from those on Labours side blaming everyone else for this result, apart from the party and those promoting it aggressively. 

 

The second part obviously was the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn. I am an unashamed fan of his, his track record is brilliant as a voice for those who need him, and he’s a man who sticks to his principles. He took so much sh*t yet somehow remained calm and never resorted to personal attacks
 
I’ve not hidden the fact that I share exactly the opposite view to you on Corbyn. We can go round the houses as to why people don’t like him, or do like him, however its a lot like trying to convert someone from Christianity to Islam or vice-versa - its not going to work. 
 
You say he took so much **** yet remained calm and never resorted to personal attacks, however what about those of his supporters?
 
Again, I’d like to invite you to comment on your brothers actions. Deliberately mis-respresting a joke of mine to call me racist. Would you say that was not a personal attack? The reason he did this was because I called Jeremy Corbyn anti-semetic. He referenced it when he made that attack on me. So whilst Corbyn himself may not be personally insulting people, it is something that is clear to have happened via his supporters.
 
As you know, I returned fire on your brother about a week later, reposting old (unedited) jokes of his, and again, refused to provide the context of it. I’m sure it won’t have gone un-noticed to you, however it got around 100 shares on FB, and from the last set of figures it reached around 24,000 people, had around 600 comments - and there were SEVERAL over people that commented that Rob had done similar to them, or that they had had similar issues with other Labour activists. 
 
When Rob got hit at Solihull, you sent me a DM on Facebook asking me to edit a post that potentially identified you and him as he was worried for his safety. I never asked you for your reasons for this, I just edited it out. You reached out to me privately with a concern and asked me to resolve it and I did. Fast forward to last month, Rob “outs” me for what he knows is a joke, then you make a post along the lines of “I always thought better of you” (directed towards me). Tell me, out of all the years you have known me, the amount of times we have interacted over the years in person and on social media, how many times you have known me stand up for those being abused - and how many times I have spoken for those that are struggling mentally, or having trouble due to their sexuality or being abused for their skin colour etc… I find it hard to accept you would also think, after all these years that the non PC comments of mine are anything but jokes (and I know full well you know my sense of humour). For you to go down the “I always thought better of you” route, and to play in with the “your racist” narrative, how do you think that feels?
 
So with this all in mind, I’m being intentionally portrayed by two people now as racist. The reason for this, after 8 years, being brought to the public, is me saying I view Corbyn to be anti-semetic. Do you think that is right? Do you think people looking at the whole argument seeing things sided more with the “its racist, go get him” or the “its an UN PC joke, its a bit dickish, if we are being honest we say stuff like that to our mates as a joke”. 
 
Rob tried to ruin my reputation over a joke, simply because I said I viewed Corbyn to be anti-semeitc. He repeatably peddled the line that I was racist. Tweeted several groups and individuals I deal with to ask for their thoughts etc… 
 
Hand on heart, do you think that is right? Hand on heart, do you honestly view me to be racist, you do know better than that. However you sided with the “he’s a racist” narrative. 
 
I hold no animosity towards you, however I hope maybe you will take stock of that and actually say yeah, you were wrong. 
 
 
Word of warning though to those of you saying a more centrist Labour leader would have won the election: whoever is the next leader, even if it’s the one you’d put your house on winning whether centrist or right-wing Labour, they will be made to appear as bad if not worse than Corbyn and anything and everything they do wrong will be amplified to full volume.
 
Lets be blunt here. This Tory government is the worst we have had in decades. They are a ****ing shambles. Blaming the people who died in the fire for being too thick to run away, calling the working class feckless and drunks and hiding in a ****ing fridge. A ****ing fridge. The same party that brought on this whole bloody Brexit mess. And yet with all those undeniable facts they have had such a huge victory. 
 
Brexit should have been the Tory’s undoing. It is/was their shitshow. They are not in power now because they are popular. I think they are probably the most hated government we have. Yet they have the power because the opposition was simply unpalatable. Corbyn’s past links, for however good you may view them, are clouded with too many meetings with scummy people, his views are too left for many to be palatable and McDonnell is viewed as even worse and extreme. 
 
Would Labour have won this election with say Kier Starmer in charge? Its impossible to say, however I would put a huge chunk of money on the fact that they would have done a hell of a lot better than what we saw on Thursday.
 
The problem Labour has now is that the left supporters of the party have alienated not just centralist Labour voters, but the floaters. The party will die if it does not get these people back. Those peddling the Corbynista style simply don’t have the numbers to make it viable. They are simply off putting to not only those in the party but even more to those outside it. The problem is within but all those campaigning are doing is attacking those that don’t vote for them. 
 
You can not insult someone, try destroy their reputation and spread fear and expect them to back you when it comes to the vote. 

Bad things are gonna happen in this Tory government. We’re already in a mental health crisis. Our public institutions are being intentionally starved of funding and their vitally skilled workers are overstretched to the point where privatisation appears the only, inevitable solution.
 
Sadly I hugely agree, which is why I ask, is now not the time that people unite, get a party together that can challenge the shitshow that is the Tory’s and get them out as soon as possible? This starts by getting rid of Corbyn, by getting rid of McDonnell, by getting rid of the extremists within the party, by getting rid of those that so aggressively attacked fellow Labour supporters and the neutral floaters. 
 
Your brother made a comment on Twitter that 60% of the campaigners like him are now being attacked as being the problem. The fact is, yes they are. The damage the likes of your brother has done is huge. However its always someone elses fault. The extreme element of the party has been quite simply given the biggest slap in the face on Thursday. The arrogance of thinking JC was going to win can not be lost when you see all those Corbynista ale drinks ordered in. 
 
The inner circle of Labour has become too left and its become too back slapping. In that bubble those campaigning are not seeing the damage they are doing. They think everyone is in tune with and agrees with them, however that isn’t the case. There is a LOT of hate for these people at the moment.
 
The climate crisis will only drive the poorest people in the world away from their homes, as will the British aircraft and bombs being dropped on places like Yemen, and yet these people fleeing these crimes, if they think of coming to Britain, will be treated like criminals and locked up in prisons if they are detected. The mental health crisis is a result of the total environment we're in and our psychology as we live in it. It is ruining our lives, and this ‘It’s okay to talk’ stuff will only put a plaster on it if it works at all. People don’t have time or money to care for each other and feel cared for in return, and when in crisis they have nowhere to retreat, nowhere to escape the punishing, humiliating everyday routine that got them to this point. People feel like useless, hopeless, worthless instruments, and when they try to kill themselves they’re chucked into facilities that treat them like criminals. Keep an eye out on your friends and loved ones and help them out where you can, cos government policy sure isn’t going to make it happen now. Be safe. I wish I could dismiss this with a 'life goes on' kind of attitude, but for too many people it really will not.
 
And we wont solve any of this with more hatred. This election has been one of the dirties and meanest on record. Friendships have been lost, insults have been traded. No one is winning. We have a **** government in, no opposition to challenge them and pretty much 5 years of **** to come. 
 
If people want change then it needs to come from within because those that hold the power within Labour are sadly not in tune with the majority of the public, which makes a shockingly **** Tory party the only one that will win. 

Anyway, thanks to all who've discussed this stuff civilly on here, I'm glad there was a place where we could discuss this, even if some of you have just been downright disgraceful all the way through.
 
I hope you will have the decency to at least consider the points I’ve made here and simply not ignore it / dismiss it out of hand. Ask yourself, has all the hatred that has gone on in the past month  put us in a better or worse place as a result?
 
As I said above, I hold no animosity towards you. I’m disappointed in how you have reacted towards me, as I feel Ive always engaged and helped you when I could, however, maybe now is the time to look to how we fix the mess of the country and how to fix the damage that has been caused. 
Edited by Flea

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It's just been explained on TV news. In a forthcoming Observer column by Mr Corbyn, he states - "Our policies were very popular; we just couldn't get people to vote for them".

Simples!

 

 

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My last post on this then it's back to football.

When the dust has settled what we have is the man who didn't and probably still doesn't believe in Brexit about to take us out of the EU. Meanwhile the man who has spent his entire political career opposing the EU surveys the wreckage of his disastrous campaign.

Proving that the people are the masters not the servants and you have to do what they desire, far too many on the Labour side had it the other way round and they actually believed that the people didn't know what was best for them and they had to be guided into their thoughts. Pure marxist thinking.

I don't agree with Brexit but that was the decision and we should have left in March, END OF DEBATE.

The other clear point is that we saw through the Labour manifesto straight away. As Boris said on the BBC debate, Labour always finish government with a financial crisis, this time they were proposing to start with one. Had Labour won and been able to carry out their fantasy we would have faced a financial crisis far greater than that that brought Greece to its knees at the end of their stay in power.

Finally the key to it all, the gift that keeps on giving, Jeremy Corbyn. 

Now I don't actually think JC is anti semitic but there are many in Labour who are and his management of the problem was disgraceful.

Then we have his fondness for terrorist ideology, people will defend him and say that he only wants peace, see how many photos you can find on the web of him with the UVF or indeed the Israeli Defence Forces, he always sides with those who are against Britain.

Finally consider the reaction from Boris et al to victory and ask yourself if Corbyn and McDonell etc would have been so gracious and attempted straight away to heal the division?

I think we all know the answer to that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Norm said:

When the dust has settled what we have is the man who didn't and probably still doesn't believe in Brexit about to take us out of the EU. Meanwhile the man who has spent his entire political career opposing the EU surveys the wreckage of his disastrous campaign.

This. Politics makes people do crazy things. Some will do owt for power.

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4 hours ago, Norm said:

My last post on this then it's back to football.

When the dust has settled what we have is the man who didn't and probably still doesn't believe in Brexit about to take us out of the EU. Meanwhile the man who has spent his entire political career opposing the EU surveys the wreckage of his disastrous campaign.

Proving that the people are the masters not the servants and you have to do what they desire, far too many on the Labour side had it the other way round and they actually believed that the people didn't know what was best for them and they had to be guided into their thoughts. Pure marxist thinking.

I don't agree with Brexit but that was the decision and we should have left in March, END OF DEBATE.

The other clear point is that we saw through the Labour manifesto straight away. As Boris said on the BBC debate, Labour always finish government with a financial crisis, this time they were proposing to start with one. Had Labour won and been able to carry out their fantasy we would have faced a financial crisis far greater than that that brought Greece to its knees at the end of their stay in power.

Finally the key to it all, the gift that keeps on giving, Jeremy Corbyn. 

Now I don't actually think JC is anti semitic but there are many in Labour who are and his management of the problem was disgraceful.

Then we have his fondness for terrorist ideology, people will defend him and say that he only wants peace, see how many photos you can find on the web of him with the UVF or indeed the Israeli Defence Forces, he always sides with those who are against Britain.

Finally consider the reaction from Boris et al to victory and ask yourself if Corbyn and McDonell etc would have been so gracious and attempted straight away to heal the division?

I think we all know the answer to that.

 

 

And that is why we have a tory government, I'm sorry but a bit of critical thinking could have gone a long way in this election. Investing for the future is the only way out of the mess we are in, starving the economy of money is not the way to grow the economy, infrastructure investment is vital for a buoyant economy, factually the labour party have always left the economy far healthier than when they took over, have always borrowed less and paid back more.

What I find funny is how people spend their time complaining about the state of the country and then vote in the very people that made it so bad. 

The labour party have handled this last few years since the referendum very badly, not helped by a rapidly right wing press,  and a government that cares not whether they lie about anything. 

Part of me still thinks none of them wanted to win really as the party that takes us out of the worlds biggest most powerful trading and standards bloc in the world,  will forever be held responsible for the calamity that follows. 

Many lies were told about corbyn, and the labour party didn't have a media voice to refute these lies, it's interesting that there is zero proof of anti semitism, plenty of anti Israeli government, but that's not anti semitism.

You cant broker peace deals without talking to the other side.

It is what it is, and the votes have been cast, I just think there are going to be some very disappointed people over the next few years.

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2 hours ago, chrisbo61 said:

What I find funny is how people spend their time complaining about the state of the country and then vote in the very people that made it so bad. 

 

A fella from Scunthorpe said on national tv.. "look around you shops are shutting, businesses are closing, the full place is falling down, so I voted for change, that's why I voted Conservative"

You couldn't make it up:rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, steve lumb said:

A fella from Scunthorpe said on national tv.. "look around you shops are shutting, businesses are closing, the full place is falling down, so I voted for change, that's why I voted Conservative"

You couldn't make it up:rolleyes:

I seriously cant understand the mind set that says things are ****! Good idea to vote for more of the same!

Is it Stockholm syndrome or something where you become attached to your abuser?

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1 minute ago, chrisbo61 said:

I seriously cant understand the mind set that says things are ****! Good idea to vote for more of the same!

Is it Stockholm syndrome or something where you become attached to your abuser?

Yes it is.

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I read an interesting article today about the press and its responsibility to society as a whole, interestingly countries that dont have news Corp (murdoch) dominated press tend to be much more open to socialist parties!

A society that is bombarded day in day out by a press totally agin any kind of slightly left of centre party has surely to be affected by that! Its subliminal isnt it. A creeping shift to the right, and it can be witnessed here now, with traditional left voters actually crossing to the right, and actually thinking that they will somehow benefit.

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Labour get stick because they're supposedly in hock to the unions. Well who the fuck do people think the Tories are in hock to? They don't get donations from private healthcare, hedge funds, currency manipulators and tax avoiders for no reason.

The Tories are only a political force because of the relatively very few wealthy vested interests that both fund and push their agenda. I'm not saying that people aren't attracted to Tory policies for innocent reasons, but remove the funding from those vested interests and the Tories would crash and burn.

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I was gutted for Josh Fenton-Glynn in Calder Valley as we get 5 more years of that absentee landlord Whittaker.

Anyway, after the upset I'm now sitting back and waiting for all of those massive economic benefits that Brexit is going to bring us. Trust me, it had better do because the anger felt at the vote being ignored (entirely legitimate and understandable even though I didn't agree with it) will pale next to how folk will feel when it goes wrong for them. And, in my humble opinion, it will go really, really wrong for them.....

Edited by 154 Hopper Avenue
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1 hour ago, chrisbo61 said:

I read an interesting article today about the press and its responsibility to society as a whole, interestingly countries that dont have news Corp (murdoch) dominated press tend to be much more open to socialist parties!

A society that is bombarded day in day out by a press totally agin any kind of slightly left of centre party has surely to be affected by that! Its subliminal isnt it. A creeping shift to the right, and it can be witnessed here now, with traditional left voters actually crossing to the right, and actually thinking that they will somehow benefit.

Mate could I point you in the direction of Alan Johnson's piece in today's MoS 

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